Things I don't grok (on cross-gender friendships)

[moominmuppet]

Girl Talk: Should I Be Jealous Of His Female Friends? -- it was the comments I found especially noteworthy, really. Although plenty of commenters express that they're ok with their partners having friends of a different gender, a large number seem to consider it so normal not to accept this that it's almost taken-for-granted (especially the

Comments

[aiela]

Female friendships are so hard for me. I don't even feel like I do particularly well in my friendships/relationships with women now, but I know I've come a long way.

My ex-husband was constantly threatened by my relationships with men, and I think part of that is why I went down the (cheating) path I did. I always felt like there was some assumption that I was doing stuff, and it made it easier in my (then) mind to actually do it

[moominmuppet]

Female friendships are so hard for me. I don't even feel like I do particularly well in my friendships/relationships with women now, but I know I've come a long way.

I think one of the things that surprises me the most is that somewhere along the way I've ended up with more female friends than male. I strongly suspect it's largely an artifact of spending so much time/energy within the feminist activist community -- there's an unsurprising gender imbalance there that gets reflected in my closer social life. Although, coming to think of it, I've more often had male housemates than female over the years, which rather reflects my historic patterns.

I am so much happier now, in both a poly relationship and one in which the gender of my friendships is completely irrelevant. As you said, I'm trusted to behave in a manner that is in line with my relationship rules. The gender of the people I'm with makes absolutely no difference.*nod* Exactly. This is the dynamic that makes intuitive sense to me, and tends to be how my life works as

[redbird]

None of that really makes sense to me, but there are pieces of it I can come closer to than others. The rule against friendship with ex-lovers is comprehensible within a particular serial framework in which it's considered normal, if not always praiseworthy, to break up an existing comfortable relationship to pursue new love/attraction. I'm guessing that in that framework, there's an expectation that the attraction to the ex is still there, and maybe also that the now-existing relationship has gotten old and settled enough to no longer be the new and shiny. [This is only a guess; I'd be interested to see an explanation of why it makes sense from someone who uses that ruleset

[moominmuppet]

[This is only a guess; I'd be interested to see an explanation of why it makes sense from someone who uses that ruleset.]

*nod* I suspect you're right, but I'd love to hear that actual perspective too.

Nor do I understand being partnered with someone you would expect to lie to you, cheat on you, etc. (though I note that people will sometimes lie because they don't want to admit to things that have nothing to do with cheating, ranging from gambling to perceived cowardice, and I'm not sure anyone is immune from that)*nod* Certainly every relationship has issues that come up. My brain just isn't wired to hear "dishonest about sex" as categorically different than any other kind of dishonesty. Rebuilding trust is rebuilding trust. And, actually, that's one of the cases where I can understand some of these limits -- if a partner has cheated, and come clean, and the couple is working to rebuild trust, I can understand placing boundaries around behavior that's led to problems in the past

[ellyssian]

[moominmuppet]

I think that's often the case, especially when "jealous rages" and other abusive behavior is present. But it doesn't feel like it explains all of it.

From redbird, in another comment:
But I think partnered is a key word/concept there: a lot of models of marriage (and other het relationships) aren't about partnership as you and I understand the term. Maybe an economic and/or child-raising partnership, but not an agreement of equals.*nod* And it doesn't feel like every single couple with some of these boundaries is all insecure and jealous (although sometimes that certainly seems to be the case). Given some of the historical factors in marriage that aren't so partnership-based, some of this may have made more sense at a previous point in history. Sometimes it feels like a combination of gender essentialism and traditionalism; "it's just not appropriate", combined with honest confusion about why men and women would be friends if they don't want to sleep together

[mutelorelei]

One of the biggest surprises and points of anger for me in my college days, was that all of a sudden it was so very much harder to make and hang out with male friends. I had mostly male friends all my life and then out of nowhere there's a fucking jealous girlfriend attached to almost every guy. It was so infuriating for me particularly because I am not and never have been a guy stealer, I will not date or sleep with an attached person who isn't open. I'm not even much of a flirter, and I really couldn't understand why so much anger was directed my way. Maybe I'm oblivious though, a little while back my best friend told me that one of the reasons that I was bullied and hated a lot in middle school was because a lot of those girls' boyfriends couldn't keep their eyes off me - and I TOTALLY never realized or saw that at all, it was a big surprise to me, but I believe her.
I don't get a lot of women though - if you don't trust your guy, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU WITH HIM? I guess maybe a lot of those people don't trust anyone though?

[moominmuppet]

I don't get a lot of women though - if you don't trust your guy, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU WITH HIM? I guess maybe a lot of those people don't trust anyone though?

Sometimes I really think a lot of people do not believe that a partner _could_ be that trustworthy. It makes me sad, because it often reflects bad experiences in the past, and that blows. But I also see a lot of social reaffirmation of that thought pattern; women encouraging each other in the belief that "men are just dogs" and such crap.

[qualistarian]

It's the "When Harry Met Sally" conversation, quoted here for your convenience

[moominmuppet]

*chuckle* That scene is the one I hate most in the movie; it's upset me since I first saw it, for exactly all these reasons.

This is where I disagree with the movie - I don't consider sex to be anathema to friendship.
Friendship with someone you have a sexual interest in may be different from friendship with someone you don't, but I certainly don't see it as impossible. As to friendship with someone you're sleeping with...well, if you weren't friends in the first place, why would you be sleeping with them?

*nod* That part makes perfect sense to me.