[controversial] on transmisogyny and male privilege

[aaskew]

(apologies in advance because this possibly comes across as a 'what about the menz? :(' post. I've tried my best not to make it so, but this is a topic I'd like to discuss further

Comments

[the_physicist]

I think it's probably a very individual thing as it depends on the trans man in question. Most will have been brought up as girls so they will have an understanding of sexism that most cis men lack and the sexist expectations society placed o them will have affected their lives -- again, something cis men don't go through.

After transitioning though... If they pass they enjoy male privilige especially from those who don't know their are trans*.
If they dont pass though, male privilige like you said, probably won't apply.

Also, we hear that there are more trans women than men. Is that because of biological factors or social factors though? I would not be surprised in the least if the ratio was actually the same but skewed by trans men the world over being denied access to the resources to educate themselves and transition or even feel like they can speak up about this.

[aaskew]

Yeah, I agree it depends on the trans men in question, which is why the blanket statements don't sit well with me. A trans man who came out as a kid, was socialised male and only went through male puberty would definitely have a very different experience with male privilege than one who came out late in adulthood and did not undergo physical transition, and conflating the two ignores a lot of those differences

[the_physicist]

Must read the updated stats, clearly XD

[aazhie]

I've also read about how many trans men who are passionate feminists often assumed that their dysphoria was simply the result of internalised misogyny (which I did for a long time)

GAH! IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE NOW... man I wish I had met someone as smart as you about ten years ago! I think i came to the same conclusion, though way less coherent than this. Thank you!

[cykotyks]

Misogyny eventually affects everyone, not just women. My boyfriend tells me he's seen trans women try to accuse trans men of not knowing what misogyny is because we're men, which completely invalidates the fact that most trans men were brought up as women. Yes, we understand misogyny, and yes, we have been (and sometimes still are) affected by it

[aaskew]

I think there needs to be a lot more dialogue about intersectionality, because most forms of privilege/oppression aren't a matter of someone either having them or not having them; while some might exist independently, sometimes there are degrees of each privilege that vary depending on that person's other group identities.

Looking back on my life I realise that I did experience male privilege as a child despite not yet figuring out I was trans (I saw myself as someone who "wanted to be a boy", but had no other words for it). For instance, I had no shortage of male role models and fictional characters to look up to and try to emulate, or pretend to be as a form of escapism. For a brief period in my pre-teen years (which I now deeply regret) I tried to deal with my dysphoria by distancing myself from girls, telling myself that they sucked and I wasn't like them, eschewing and deriding anything feminine or associated with femaleness, and misogynistic society by and large agreed with me and supported my views

[aaskew]

"But would we say gay cis men are also affected by misogyny?"

It would probably be effective to have clearer definitions of the terms; if misogyny extends to hatred of femininity, rather than just women, then fem men could likewise be victims of it. Discussions of misogyny seem to be moving towards that direction, but I'm not sure how universally that definition is accepted.

[aaskew]

I tried googling 'transmisandry' once, and ended up on an anti-FTM series of blog articles, so that... wasn't too nice and also kind of triggery. There were some good points in there, specifically with regard to trans men who express transmisogyny against trans women, but the self-righteous tone (author is a trans man who seemed that he was just trying to score points by showing how he was better than those other trans men) put me off.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure if the term would be accurate, seeing that most transphobia against trans men has roots in misogyny rather than misandry; unless the term 'transmisandry' is used to refer uniquely to 'oppression against trans men', rather than the intersection of transphobia and misandry.

I've actually not seen the term 'cis male privilege' used before; it got me searching out stuff and finding a lot of interesting material, so thanks for that. :D I also discovered this post from just a couple days ago, so it looks like someone brought it up before I did

[aaskew]

sure, noted!

I think the tiny font is due to it being a footnote, and footnotes are usually small. I'm not sure what the blog owner's gender is, but it's one of the more balanced trans blogs on the trans male -dominated Tumblr community in terms of posting a lot of stuff by trans women and from trans women's perspectives. Most of their readers are more than aware that 'women' includes trans women, and the footnote came across more as an extra bit of snark for those who still thought otherwise.

[mutated_queer]

I have male privilege but in some ways it is less internalised because I'm not male and I have not been treated as male for much of my life. Like I don't go through the park when it's dark without being with several other people. Several women have been assaulted in it recently but even prior to that happening it has always been known as unsafe. Nearly all the men I know will because they feel safe doing so. Nearly all the women I know won't because they fear attack. Actually if I were to walk through that park my looking male hence male privilege will make me just as safe as all the other guys but because I've not internalised it in the same way that's not how I experience it. I think internalising isn't as a simple as what gender you were treated as growing up. I think it might be something which happens to me over time though I'm not sure what I think about that

[aumentou]

If a person is considered to be a woman for some period of time, then it seems obvious they can suffer from misogyny during that period of time, irrespective of gender and AAB sex.
For a trans man, the process of being told you're a woman is transphobic. Obviously it could also lead to misogyny.
So yeah, transphobia and misogyny. What do you want us to do, besides acknowledging this?

[gymx]

Yes. OP seems to have an undestanding of this, not sure what else he is looking for.

[aaskew]

I'm trying to look further into the degrees/types of misogyny as to how it relates to intersecting privileges and identities, mostly out of an academic interest. The comments so far have been thought-provoking.