[controversial] on transmisogyny and male privilege

[aaskew]

(apologies in advance because this possibly comes across as a 'what about the menz? :(' post. I've tried my best not to make it so, but this is a topic I'd like to discuss further

Comments

[the_physicist]

I think it's probably a very individual thing as it depends on the trans man in question. Most will have been brought up as girls so they will have an understanding of sexism that most cis men lack and the sexist expectations society placed o them will have affected their lives -- again, something cis men don't go through.

After transitioning though... If they pass they enjoy male privilige especially from those who don't know their are trans*.
If they dont pass though, male privilige like you said, probably won't apply.

Also, we hear that there are more trans women than men. Is that because of biological factors or social factors though? I would not be surprised in the least if the ratio was actually the same but skewed by trans men the world over being denied access to the resources to educate themselves and transition or even feel like they can speak up about this.

[aaskew]

Yeah, I agree it depends on the trans men in question, which is why the blanket statements don't sit well with me. A trans man who came out as a kid, was socialised male and only went through male puberty would definitely have a very different experience with male privilege than one who came out late in adulthood and did not undergo physical transition, and conflating the two ignores a lot of those differences

[the_physicist]

Must read the updated stats, clearly XD

[aazhie]

I've also read about how many trans men who are passionate feminists often assumed that their dysphoria was simply the result of internalised misogyny (which I did for a long time)

GAH! IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE NOW... man I wish I had met someone as smart as you about ten years ago! I think i came to the same conclusion, though way less coherent than this. Thank you!

[aaskew]

you're welcome! It wasn't just me, though, but the result of reading way too much stuff on trans issues.

although on my part I realised that my internalised racism didn't make me want to be white, and my internalised homophobia didn't make me want to be straight; so it would be odd if my internalised misogyny made me want to be male. I thought it could still be a possibility, because misogyny is a far more pervasive social discrimination than the others, but it didn't seem to tally with how I responded to other internalised -isms.

[didactic_cudgel]

After transitioning though... If they pass they enjoy male privilige especially from those who don't know their are trans*.
If they dont pass though, male privilige like you said, probably won't apply.

Just so that it's said, we can agree that trans men who don't pass or struggle with passing are more likely to continue to experience misogyny, especially as related to the their trans experience, right? This was my take from the OP. I assume that men who pass without question are going to have a much different experience with privilege and transmisogyny, and are less in need of this discussion than those men who occupy more liminal space or who have a harder time passing. Is that wrongheaded of me?

(Disclosure: I'm bigendered and have to work - but not super hard - to pass as either binary - I get misgendered in either presentation, but more often when presenting as my assigned-at-birth gender, ironically enough).

[aaskew]

Yep, that!
Though individual differences in upbringing might play a part too. A trans man who passes well post-transition but had a very gender-constricted childhood might still feel the effects of misogyny: for instance in reflexively acting submissively when around men, if he was brought up taught that he was a girl who should know her place or else. Socialisation can be hard to throw off, and it has lasting effects on things like self-esteem and interpersonal interaction, in this case in ways that cis men would not have experienced.

[the_physicist]

That is what I meant to say, yes

[the_physicist]

That was a huge generalisation. Do you disagree with that they might have more of an understanding or because I was generalising too mch? Genuinely interested in your answer.

[varanus]

Both counts, really.

One of the most disconcerting things that I learned from transitioning is that I have no idea what women experience. Even though I spent twenty-five years allegedly living as one.

[the_physicist]

What women experience? I was only talking about sexism. And if you haven't experienced that I'm really glad to hear that, but um... I have. I find it hard to believe I guess that others wouldn't unless they lived in a society without sexism. :-/ Or did you you think I meant other experiences

[aaskew]

+1

[varanus]

Yeah, like dogboi below, I can pretty much say that I was subjected to very little direct sexism pre-transition, and various misogynist cultural messages just passed me by, whether they were actually aimed at me or not. Most of the oppression and violence I have experienced in my life has been homophobic in nature, i.e., I was obviously not a girl despite my apparently-female embodiment. I did not live in paradise (unless you count dying steel towns paradise); my family of origin are working-class rural people from the edges of Appalachia

[the_physicist]

Such people were looked on with disdain, but there's nothing to be done, really.

I'm confused. So you are saying there was sexist prejudice that had a social affect, but not one that had an effect on your career choices or threatened your safety?

It is interesting for me to hear these stories as I've only recently found this comm and otherwise haven't had an opportunity to talk about trans* issues before. I guess I assumed everyone would share my (very different) experiences.

Thank you for taking the time to talk about your experiences.

[varanus]

I wouldn't say it was a "sexist" prejudice-I experienced it as a homophobic/transphobic one. It had nothing to do with me being perceived as a woman and everything to do with me being perceived as extremely gender variant. Had I been actually perceived as a woman, I might have gotten the sort of sexist flack that you described