[controversial] on transmisogyny and male privilege

[aaskew]

(apologies in advance because this possibly comes across as a 'what about the menz? :(' post. I've tried my best not to make it so, but this is a topic I'd like to discuss further

Comments

[aaskew]

I tried googling 'transmisandry' once, and ended up on an anti-FTM series of blog articles, so that... wasn't too nice and also kind of triggery. There were some good points in there, specifically with regard to trans men who express transmisogyny against trans women, but the self-righteous tone (author is a trans man who seemed that he was just trying to score points by showing how he was better than those other trans men) put me off.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure if the term would be accurate, seeing that most transphobia against trans men has roots in misogyny rather than misandry; unless the term 'transmisandry' is used to refer uniquely to 'oppression against trans men', rather than the intersection of transphobia and misandry.

I've actually not seen the term 'cis male privilege' used before; it got me searching out stuff and finding a lot of interesting material, so thanks for that. :D I also discovered this post from just a couple days ago, so it looks like someone brought it up before I did.

Yeah, I know about 'butch flight'. I don't think that perception is limited to cis queer women, though, especially given the inability of many people in general to understand the difference between a femme gay man and a trans woman, or a butch lesbian and a trans man. In the case of cis queer women in particular, I think it's a large reason why they tend to include trans men but not trans women in WBW events - they don't see trans men as qualitatively different from butch women.

[aaskew]

sure, noted!

I think the tiny font is due to it being a footnote, and footnotes are usually small. I'm not sure what the blog owner's gender is, but it's one of the more balanced trans blogs on the trans male -dominated Tumblr community in terms of posting a lot of stuff by trans women and from trans women's perspectives. Most of their readers are more than aware that 'women' includes trans women, and the footnote came across more as an extra bit of snark for those who still thought otherwise.

[the_physicist]

Meanwhile, I'm not sure if the term would be accurate, seeing that most transphobia against trans men has roots in misogyny rather than misandry; unless the term 'transmisandry' is used to refer uniquely to 'oppression against trans men', rather than the intersection of transphobia and misandry.

Misandry really isnt a real thing. Women don't have the institutional power over men to discriminate against them in an institutionalised way, only individually. Someone who is behind on their mortage payments and hates wealthy bankers can't discriminate against bankers, all they can do is hate them. There's no -ism's involved here.

The roots of transphobia a manifold. There's the whole "those people are mental!" thing. They just think we're crazy. People are afraid of what they don't understand.

But let's not forget that transphobia isn't necessarily a global phenomenon, but rather finds an extreme expression predominantly in Western culture. Society and religion play a huge part here, more so than sexism, which is far more universal.

[aaskew]

I'd say that misandry is a real thing in that it's defined as the hatred of (rather than the oppression of) men, and does not require this to be institutionalised, in the same way that misanthropy can and does exist and is definitely not institutionalised or considered an -ism. Meanwhile i'd have to disagree about transphobia being a predominantly Western thing, based on personal experience as a person living in Singapore who has studied in the US. Location was probably a factor (I was in Oregon), but generally I've found the society back home to be a lot more transphobic than what I know of that in the West. Homosexuality is still criminalised here, for starters, as it is up north in Malaysia, where medical transition is illegal. In other countries, people are - under the law - killed or jailed for being LGBT.

[aaskew]

^i conflated homophobia and transphobia up there because most people here can't seem to tell the difference between a gay and trans person.

[the_physicist]

I'd say that misandry is a real thing in that it's defined as the hatred of (rather than the oppression of) men

Okay, i agree with you on that, but when misandry and misogyny are used in the same sentence as if they are equal, then that is the problem, because misogyny is far more than people hating women, despite that being of course the 'meaning of the word'. it implies all the oppression and people being able to act on that hatred. that is definitely not there in the term misandry.

As for your experiences in other countries, I possibly didn't make it clear what I was trying to say and also, the thing is, maybe my research wasn't good enough, but from what I'd read, it seemed to me that a lot of the homophobia and transphobia in the world originated from the West sending out their missionaries and trying to 'educate' people on the wrongs of queer people.

[aaskew]

Maybe it would be useful to separate misogyny from sexism, where the latter implies institutionalisation of misogynistic hatred in the form of oppression. Which is why sexism is generally agreed to refer to sexism against women, not men. I'm not sure about the semantics here though, or the nuances of each definition. :\

Regarding the West being the source of homo/trans -phobia, it's probably true in some countries that had a history of colonisation and/or significant Christian influence in the past, but I doubt it covers all of it. Muslim countries are some of the worst culprits in that area, and I don't think there's much Western influence there; also in China, there is a lot of emphasis on preserving the family name through the male line, and a son who was gay or a trans girl would have been considered a disappointment and highly stigmatised as a result, possibly forced to suppress his/her identity in the name of family honour and producing kids the cisheteronormative way.

In the case of Singapore, we used to be a British colony and the current laws against homosexuality originated from that time period. So that's definitely a factor, but most of the current homo/trans -phobia sentiment seems to have developed a very anti-Western slant (e.g. we shouldn't want to be like those disgusting sexual deviants in the West) and is often non-religious in nature. It's tied more strongly to Asian family values: such as the notion of being a disappointment to your parents, parents not properly disciplining their children on how to be 'proper' men or women, children being rebellious, and so on.

[the_physicist]

I'm not sure about the semantics here though, or the nuances of each definition. :\

I think sexism and misogyny are very closely linked, it is about nuances here so probably not worth debating as i'm not a linguist, lol.

Muslim countries are some of the worst culprits in that area, and I don't think there's much Western influence there;

i guess i see the judo/muslim/christian religions as very similar as they have the same roots.

But yes, i see what you mean. and especially with China. I guess that is not just the 1 child policy but more to it than that. you're right.

In the case of Singapore, we used to be a British colony and the current laws against homosexuality originated from that time period. So that's definitely a factor, but most of the current homo/trans -phobia sentiment seems to have developed a very anti-Western slant (e.g. we shouldn't want to be like those disgusting sexual deviants in the West) and is often non-religious in nature. It's tied more strongly to Asian family values: such as the notion of being a disappointment to your parents, parents not properly disciplining their children on how to be 'proper' men or women, children being rebellious, and so on.

Yeah, that sounds like a good mix of everything :-S. I understand what you mean with the reactionary homo/trans -phobia against the West's (US and UK foremost) reactions on being brought up on those issues and working towards accepting them (slowly). I think that those reactions are not unique to Asian families. you see that in Europe too, although it's tempered because of the atrocities of WWII against queer people and so society has taken that history on board--you can't get away being too bigoted (of course it still happens a lot and many govermnements and societies in Europe are terrible on queer issues, but they do restrain themselves because of history).