[controversial] on transmisogyny and male privilege

[aaskew]

(apologies in advance because this possibly comes across as a 'what about the menz? :(' post. I've tried my best not to make it so, but this is a topic I'd like to discuss further

Comments

[chronidu]

Pretty much all this, I've know a sad too many trans men who were even more misogynistic than most cismen I knew, as well as being disgustingly prejudice and judgmental of other trans identified individuals.

Regardless of our identities we're still all human, and still all susceptible to limitless prejudices.

[aaskew]

Not defending him at all, but at early pre-T points of my transition I was also somewhat upset with women who wore men's clothing, because people lumped me in with them and said things like "lots of women also like to wear men's clothing! that doesn't make you a man, it makes you a woman who likes to wear men's clothing!"

[aaskew]

The second.

"Why is not sufficient for you to acknowledge your experiences with sexism, without having a theoretical framework that explains how these experiences tie in with your trans identity?"

I like having coherent theories and models for my life, because it makes me feel more secure in my identity and how to interact with others (I'm on the autistic spectrum and need fairly strict frameworks in order to know what to do on a social level, in this case along gendered lines; I also seem to need theories in order to make sense of my lived experiences).

On a more personal level, I've been struggling with the issue of belonging in men's/women's spaces, because while I know I have no place in women's spaces, it's not as though the men's spaces are welcoming me in with open arms. I've seen trans communities criticise trans men who enrolled in girls'/womens' schools and universities, for instance. I'm one of them (though I wasn't out at that time), and had I chosen not to join the all-girls' school I did, I would still have not been

[aaskew]

"Is there scope for you to develop your own theories?"

yeah, I've been trying to do that, the problem being that without outside validation I have no idea how legit they are, because it requires a lot of assumptions about how other people view the world and their own genders, and how my own experiences relate to that.

"Why does it matter to you to have a voice in feminist discussions?I've spent a significant part of my life being a passionate feminist. Being on the receiving end of sexism and not having much of a voice or authority in patriarchal society made feminist spaces (particularly online ones) the main outlet for my opinions and expression. I was able to relate to a lot of women in their experiences of misogyny, and they were able to relate to mine. When I was perceived as (and wrongly thought myself to be, thinking my gender dysphoria was merely internalised misogyny) cis female, this wasn't a problem

[dogboi]

Hi! Just looking over your tumblr post...

This might be a good example of why its important to believe women about their experiences. And accept some things might be harder for us to see as men who don't live in these very-particular-yet-influential feminist communities.

My impression from my limited exposure: It's not that your point #5 is the natural, logical conclusion of the previous 4 points. Rather feminists like Julia Serano have observed the details of the dynamics of trans men in feminist communities in places like the Bay Area and noticed a privileging of a particular kind of maleness. FWIW, the way the dynamics are described reminds me of the privileging of Feminist Guy concerns in more mainstream feminist spaces.

[aaskew]

I realise that a certain kind of maleness is privileged, but I'm not sure if it can be described as male privilege in the usual sense. This is especially so in queer/trans spaces that accept trans men but not trans women, such as WBW events and certain women's colleges, because I highly doubt those people responsible would be willing to allow cis men into their fold for the same reason they don't allow trans women. And if cis men are not privileged in such a space, then it would seem that conventional male privilege can't be responsible for whatever is going on in there, because cis men have the most male privilege.

Trans male privilege, maybe? Sort of as the other side of transmisogyny. Although yeah, I see your point about the privileging of Feminist Guy concerns in mainstream feminism, and I'm not sure if it has the same origins or exists as a separate but similar phenomenon.

[varanus]

No, what goes on there is straight-up transphobia that many trans men allow to continue because it materially benefits them in the short term. Which is disgusting. All those "WBW" discussions actually boil down to this: the anti-trans-woman contingent of the MWMF believes that the genitals your doctor (thought he/she) saw at birth trump everything else. So trans women are all actually men (no matter how passing, no matter how much surgery) and we are all women. Thus, a trans man is welcome in women's spaces where a trans woman is not. Now, folks who believe that know it's not ok to actually say that in public, so they invent convoluted excuses, like that the MWMF is actually about "surviving girlhood" (as if no trans women had a girlhood, or as if every non-trans girlhood is similar). Or, when talking about women's colleges, they keep bellyaching about the needs of individual trans men instead of prioritizing the needs of women, trans and cis. And some trans men go along with that shit because it's scary to leave behind your community

[aaskew]

"Transmisogyny is a problem that really does solely belong to trans women."

Yeah, not disputing that.

The thing is that most of the people accusing WBW spaces of enforcing male privilege are trans women, especially of late. There's been a lot of that going on around Tumblr recently. On one of those posts I said that I didn't think male privilege was what was going on there, and a trans woman told me to fuck off. Her post I responded to: "the trans movement is very sexist. sexism is the privileging of men over non-men."

So I'm a bit lost as to what's happening, or if there's just a lot of miscommunication going on.

[gymx]

I'm non-binary; you're not, as far as I know. So I don't know how much of the following will apply