GoT S3: the cowardly lion

[pocochina]

So I am fascinated and so pleased with what Martin, D&D, and Dance are doing with Tywin Lannister. Only, I don't think I've seen my take on him posted elsewhere, which is as good an excuse as any to indulge in scathing hatred, so. Consider yourselves warned/intrigued. Spoilers through aired episodes of GoT; plot twists that haven't happened yet are

Comments

[ever_neutral]

Yeah, the lack of discussion re: Tywin’s treatment of Tyrion is… interesting. I guess because everyone hates Tyrion for various reasons? That, or it doesn’t merit discussion because ~people like Tyrion~ don’t count. ☺ ☺ ☺

That is to say: not only to produce physical heirs, but create an environment conducive to the procreation of future heirs, which means managing not to fuck the heirs-existent up so badly that they seem posed to burn themselves and their offspring up in a blaze of dysfunction. YOU HAD ONE JOB, ASSHOLE!
L O L

"Cersei acts and thinks like someone who was abused her whole life, therefore her first and worst abuser was clearly correct in his evaluation of her" does not sit well with me.T H A N K Y O U

[bellonablack]

I kind of thought Tyrion was the fan favorite of the series?

(well he's mine, so maybe I just went around people who liked him too) but ...I don't know if everyone hates Tyrion, though people may chose a more preferred Lannister.

[ever_neutral]

Hmm, well, the Tyrion hate is mostly re: book Tyrion. Show Tyrion is a fan favorite, I think. But the lack of discussion pertains to both, afaik.

[bellonablack]

People hate bookTryion?! >/ That pisses me off, to be honest. (because yes, I love bookTyrion too!) Throws up hands. I don't really understand though I can see the differences in the portrayals and versions of it.

To be honest, I'd have no idea if it was a factor, it could very well be exactly that, though I have seem people appreciate both at once. It is far from common.

[abigail_n]

My recollection is that Robb's line about "a mad dog without a strategic thought in his head" was about The Mountain, not Tywin, but I could be wrong.

This is a very interesting reading, though I'm not persuaded that it's the one intended by the show (and I definitely don't think that the show has done enough to suggest Tywin as a genuinely abusive father, as opposed to a shitty one in the way that a patriarchal, misogynistic, martial society would encourage). It definitely chimes, however, with my confusion at his treatment of Tyrion at the end of season 2. A smart man, it seemed to me - and the show did seem to be presenting Tywin as such - would recognize Tyrion's accomplishments (and his potential to become an enemy) no matter how prejudiced he was against Tyrion's disability.

[pocochina]

I was thinking of the use of the line in the show, though it may also be in the books. (The Mountain is still acting on Tywin's behalf, though, so I'm comfortable with the adaptation.)

This is so consistent to me I have a hard time getting my head around the idea that it could be an accident. So maybe a POV, thing, but I'd argue that if the show were trying to softpedal Tywin's behavior as being contextually appropriate, it wouldn't have included or frequently reminded us of Tysha.

It definitely chimes, however, with my confusion at his treatment of Tyrion at the end of season 2. A smart man, it seemed to me - and the show did seem to be presenting Tywin as such - would recognize Tyrion's accomplishments (and his potential to become an enemy) no matter how prejudiced he was against Tyrion's disability.I thought that was quite clear as well, that Tywin was presented as being smart enough to understand that it was in everyone's best interests to develop and utilize Tyrion's talents, and Tywin's refusal to do so was about him being a

[hobbit_kate]

I was thinking of the use of the line in the show, though it may also be in the books. (The Mountain is still acting on Tywin's behalf, though, so I'm comfortable with the adaptation.)

Having finished books 2 & 3 less than a month ago, I'd have to disagree there. While his enemies will call Tywin cruel, they (Catelyn or Brynden, can't recall which one) also do mention more than once that going up against Tywin will be difficult because of his strategic prowess. It's mainly mentioned in comparison to Jaime's impatience, but still.

Tywin was presented as being smart enough to understand that it was in everyone's best interests to develop and utilize Tyrion's talents, and Tywin's refusal to do so was about him being a contemptible shit toward his children.

Couldn't agree more. He saw Tyrion's worth and chose to ignore it because he didn't like the idea of giving Tyrion any kind of power.

[pocochina]

Well, in the show it's Robb speaking about Tywin, and he's right. I went and found the quote, and it is about the Mountain, but clearly about his actions on Tywin's behalf, so I stand by the point. Catelyn or the Blackfish may buy into the legend of Tywin's genius - I imagine it's quite comforting to them, to think they're losing to some Lex Luthor type - but ASOIAF is great because all narrators are unreliable. A long excerpt from that Tower of the Hand essay, because you don't want to click the link until you're caught up:

On the military side, Tywin is a good organizer, managing to raise and supply large numbers of troops even after defeats (one of the most difficult logistical feats a general can perform) and executing a nearly-flawless conquest of the Riverlands (albeit against little opposition). However, Tywin's record as a field general is more mixed -- in the early stages of the war, he takes Raventree Hall and Harrenhal against little opposition while using Jaime to do the main fighting and Clegane to disrupt the enemy's

[bellonablack]

I totally agree that the whole thing is ....very realistic to the end of the earth kind of way and that's why Martin ...well, he's Martin. 0-0

It is impressively done.

Though I will say the show didn't push that idea as much maybe as the books....seemed to? There was a difference there, somewhere, but I would need to watch more closely to be sure about that. (and tbh, sometimes Tywin did do some pretty--sharp things to me, in comparison)

(and I want to ask about Joffrey in general, about how you think any of this affected what we first saw of him???)

[pocochina]

I do think he's quite clever politically, I just don't think that translates into the full-on flawless Magnificent Bastard status fandom seems to give him

[bellonablack]

!!! I think many characters just DROP on that standard sometimes, and I'm just like. The trope name. Should be more ---exacting ahaha.

YES--I THINK THEY ARE TOO! Shared violence, and the reaction to it. Joff was just thrown in with great power and little restraint, and Tywin had to 'hide' it. YES. XD

(Joff is great in having ....a literal manifestation of this mindset and HOW. And the consequences...)

I love Joff as a character for that very reason you said, brilliant!

[bellonablack]

Actually thinking about this, I think people may not explore the child abuse angle, because then you are kind of...it's interesting, because it'd be something to say someone is pure the product of their environment, even if it's more real than real? I think it's a matter of there being a difficulty in resisting dividing a character up and saying 'you are this way because a' or you are this way because you, yourself'. And how that is often not that dividable at all.

I think it may be an attempt to give the characters more ...agency (even if this is the wrong word?) But it can be objectively the wrong way to go, since the environment does--I have no words but the only one I can think of is factor, as lame as that word is considering the topic.

I think that's the reason, imo.

[pocochina]

eh, I don't think it's that hard to say "this influence is a part of a character's decision-making" without stripping them of agency.

[bellonablack]

Well, I'm not sure on that, but I can see your point. It varies though with gender and character imo, and while it's not hard, per se, it is greatly avoided for certain characters and not others, which expound on blame, while others don't get any.

I really don't entirely ...see it that way, I guess, but I do see your point.

[pocochina]

I don't think there's any such thing as a "bad seed," a child who will be what they will regardless of environment. I think Tywin's ability to speak up about Genna says much more about his being in an environment where dissent was, at least, not unsafe to voice - the very "weak" permissive environment he disdains. I think the comparison with Cersei is quite useful not so much because there's some inherent personality trait one had and the other didn't, but because it's demonstrative of the differences in their environment. Cersei did know that things were wildly unsafe and she had to ape Tywin as much as possible, and she took her cues about Tyrion from her father's behavior.

[Spoiler (click to open)]I think it's her sexual abuse of Tyrion as a baby, and her murder of Melara, that make people attribute her political mistakes to her personality and not just her upbringing?I mean, if anything, Tywin demonstrates that you can have clear capacity to be a gross violent "kind of person" and a competent politician at the same time even as an adult, let alone as a

[pocochina]

I fully admit I'm vehement about it because he pushes my buttons and he would regardless of how I felt about Cersei, Jamie, and Tyrion (though the fact that I love them all does not help his case). But I do feel like the way his abusiveness to his children springs from the same underlying psychological/philosophical place as his political/military choices does not get examined so much - instead you will hear "he's a bad father BUT a BAMF commander!" as if those are two separate aspects of his personality. Granted, I don't go looking for Tywin meta because see above re: incoherent rage.

I don't know that I'd say Cersei would definitely have been a ~master at the game? I'm just saying that (a) I see potential there for her to be a lot more effective than she is and (b) I see patterns which I am quite certain are limiting her, though to what degree I do not know.