GoT S3: the cowardly lion

[pocochina]

So I am fascinated and so pleased with what Martin, D&D, and Dance are doing with Tywin Lannister. Only, I don't think I've seen my take on him posted elsewhere, which is as good an excuse as any to indulge in scathing hatred, so. Consider yourselves warned/intrigued. Spoilers through aired episodes of GoT; plot twists that haven't happened yet are

Comments

[pocochina]

I don't think there's any such thing as a "bad seed," a child who will be what they will regardless of environment. I think Tywin's ability to speak up about Genna says much more about his being in an environment where dissent was, at least, not unsafe to voice - the very "weak" permissive environment he disdains. I think the comparison with Cersei is quite useful not so much because there's some inherent personality trait one had and the other didn't, but because it's demonstrative of the differences in their environment. Cersei did know that things were wildly unsafe and she had to ape Tywin as much as possible, and she took her cues about Tyrion from her father's behavior.

[Spoiler (click to open)]I think it's her sexual abuse of Tyrion as a baby, and her murder of Melara, that make people attribute her political mistakes to her personality and not just her upbringing?

I mean, if anything, Tywin demonstrates that you can have clear capacity to be a gross violent "kind of person" and a competent politician at the same time even as an adult, let alone as a child (by definition a person whose judgment and impulse control is not fully formed). I think those incidents are pretty far beside the point of whether or not Cersei had potential.

I don't think Cersei was abused as a child? And yet those violent and abusive tendencies were present in her, nevertheless.

I'm not big on the idea that an abuser picks out one victim and preserves a safe environment for everyone else in the home. Highly-visible abuse of one person is a warning and a threat to everyone who sees it. I don't think Cersei was treated as poorly as Tyrion was, but I do think she was given reason to see it as being in the realm of normal.

Tytos had made House Lannister considerably poorer, so much so as to be on the brink of ruin by the time he died--and being laughed at by your own bannermen, and being willing to give away a daughter in a disadvantageous marriage just because it's the easy choice, isn't just a matter of pride, it's a serious threat to your position and security in Westeros.

Sure, but by his death, Tywin was still left with bannermen, and a well-connected sister, and was sitting on an enormous pile of gold. It's still a political accomplishment, but it's one in which he had a lot of advantages.

I'm going to have to re-read the books, because I thought Tywin was the one doing the delegating? I wouldn't have thought Aerys was in a fit state to administer duties to anyone.

Tywin was delegated to his position by the Mad King in his appointment as Hand. He also did delegating from there and was quite good at it, from what I can tell, but he was effectively like the White House Chief of Staff, serving at the pleasure of the head of state.

As for that last theory, [Spoiler (click to open)]I'm torn? I mean, I certainly wouldn't put it past him. But I don't really see the Tyrells as having trusted any extraneous outsiders, and I don't think anything in the books requires or even suggests it. tbh it strikes me more as fandom "a bunch of *girls* couldn't have gotten one over on the man's man Tywin Lannister" gender stereotypes than anything.

[pocochina]

I fully admit I'm vehement about it because he pushes my buttons and he would regardless of how I felt about Cersei, Jamie, and Tyrion (though the fact that I love them all does not help his case). But I do feel like the way his abusiveness to his children springs from the same underlying psychological/philosophical place as his political/military choices does not get examined so much - instead you will hear "he's a bad father BUT a BAMF commander!" as if those are two separate aspects of his personality. Granted, I don't go looking for Tywin meta because see above re: incoherent rage.

I don't know that I'd say Cersei would definitely have been a ~master at the game? I'm just saying that (a) I see potential there for her to be a lot more effective than she is and (b) I see patterns which I am quite certain are limiting her, though to what degree I do not know.

[hobbit_kate]

I'm not big on the idea that an abuser picks out one victim and preserves a safe environment for everyone else in the home

He may have been less abusive before his wife died, though? I do think that she might have softened him, at least where the children were concerned?

I don't think Cersei was treated as poorly as Tyrion was, but I do think she was given reason to see it as being in the realm of normal.

[spoiler for book 4]I think the fact that Cersei was psychologically abused as well is so obvious whenever she's thinking about Sansa. She seems to believe that Sansa should've thanked her for all that she taught her and just forget about the abuse. Which strikes me as a coping mechanism she herself has adopted to deal with her father's dismissive behaviour (only remember the good things).

[pocochina]

He may have been less abusive before his wife died, though? I do think that she might have softened him, at least where the children were concerned?

I'd be surprised if that weren't the case, and even then, Cersei and Jaime had much healthier formative years because Joanna was still around as a buffer. But regardless, Cersei was in an environment that taught her that her early violence toward Tyrion was okay.

And even if he was good to the kids, they were still being fed Rains of Castamere type stories about how Tywin would lay waste to anyone who refused him.

That's a good point about how she thinks of Sansa, too.