GoT S3: the cowardly lion

[pocochina]

So I am fascinated and so pleased with what Martin, D&D, and Dance are doing with Tywin Lannister. Only, I don't think I've seen my take on him posted elsewhere, which is as good an excuse as any to indulge in scathing hatred, so. Consider yourselves warned/intrigued. Spoilers through aired episodes of GoT; plot twists that haven't happened yet are

Comments

[abigail_n]

My recollection is that Robb's line about "a mad dog without a strategic thought in his head" was about The Mountain, not Tywin, but I could be wrong.

This is a very interesting reading, though I'm not persuaded that it's the one intended by the show (and I definitely don't think that the show has done enough to suggest Tywin as a genuinely abusive father, as opposed to a shitty one in the way that a patriarchal, misogynistic, martial society would encourage). It definitely chimes, however, with my confusion at his treatment of Tyrion at the end of season 2. A smart man, it seemed to me - and the show did seem to be presenting Tywin as such - would recognize Tyrion's accomplishments (and his potential to become an enemy) no matter how prejudiced he was against Tyrion's disability.

[pocochina]

I was thinking of the use of the line in the show, though it may also be in the books. (The Mountain is still acting on Tywin's behalf, though, so I'm comfortable with the adaptation.)

This is so consistent to me I have a hard time getting my head around the idea that it could be an accident. So maybe a POV, thing, but I'd argue that if the show were trying to softpedal Tywin's behavior as being contextually appropriate, it wouldn't have included or frequently reminded us of Tysha.

It definitely chimes, however, with my confusion at his treatment of Tyrion at the end of season 2. A smart man, it seemed to me - and the show did seem to be presenting Tywin as such - would recognize Tyrion's accomplishments (and his potential to become an enemy) no matter how prejudiced he was against Tyrion's disability.I thought that was quite clear as well, that Tywin was presented as being smart enough to understand that it was in everyone's best interests to develop and utilize Tyrion's talents, and Tywin's refusal to do so was about him being a

[hobbit_kate]

I was thinking of the use of the line in the show, though it may also be in the books. (The Mountain is still acting on Tywin's behalf, though, so I'm comfortable with the adaptation.)

Having finished books 2 & 3 less than a month ago, I'd have to disagree there. While his enemies will call Tywin cruel, they (Catelyn or Brynden, can't recall which one) also do mention more than once that going up against Tywin will be difficult because of his strategic prowess. It's mainly mentioned in comparison to Jaime's impatience, but still.

Tywin was presented as being smart enough to understand that it was in everyone's best interests to develop and utilize Tyrion's talents, and Tywin's refusal to do so was about him being a contemptible shit toward his children.

Couldn't agree more. He saw Tyrion's worth and chose to ignore it because he didn't like the idea of giving Tyrion any kind of power.

[pocochina]

Well, in the show it's Robb speaking about Tywin, and he's right. I went and found the quote, and it is about the Mountain, but clearly about his actions on Tywin's behalf, so I stand by the point. Catelyn or the Blackfish may buy into the legend of Tywin's genius - I imagine it's quite comforting to them, to think they're losing to some Lex Luthor type - but ASOIAF is great because all narrators are unreliable. A long excerpt from that Tower of the Hand essay, because you don't want to click the link until you're caught up:

On the military side, Tywin is a good organizer, managing to raise and supply large numbers of troops even after defeats (one of the most difficult logistical feats a general can perform) and executing a nearly-flawless conquest of the Riverlands (albeit against little opposition). However, Tywin's record as a field general is more mixed -- in the early stages of the war, he takes Raventree Hall and Harrenhal against little opposition while using Jaime to do the main fighting and Clegane to disrupt the enemy's

[hobbit_kate]

He even loses the Battle of the Fords to Edmure Tully, who's hardly the greatest commander in Westerosi history.

Okay. I think you've convinced me now :D

but dependent on his super-strength in resources and his willingness to use scorched-earth tactics

Not to mention all of his "dogs". *shudder*

Everybody gets credit for Blackwater. Except Tyrion. Who discusses it at length throughout a whole book :P
And then Tywin was right to say that Tyrion would be better off not trying to seek approval all the time - but, of course, Tywin's the one who made him that way.

[pocochina]

Tywin was right to say that Tyrion would be better off not trying to seek approval all the time - but, of course, Tywin's the one who made him that way.

Well, that, but also, what is his other option? Accomplish things and not want or try to get payback? Or just not contribute anything? Tyrion would be better off if he wasn't in a position where he needs to promote himself, but Tywin's mixing up correlation and causation here.

[angearia]

Right, Tywin relies on massive wealth, massive numbers, and massive brutality to win the day.

He's about beating his enemy, not strategically disarming his enemy.

It's a great bit of casting, that Charles Dance carries the presence and charisma to carry the myth of Tywin's strategic genius on his shoulders.

[pocochina]

Dance has been KILLING it.

Right, Tywin relies on massive wealth, massive numbers, and massive brutality to win the day.

Yes! Even their military strategy is about WE HAVE STUFF, not WE DO STUFF.

[noybusiness]

He's competent, in a by-the-numbers way, but dependent on his super-strength in resources and his willingness to use scorched-earth tactics - not an independent strategist in the way Robb (not exactly Baby Einstein) is.

I totally didn't realize Tywin's tendency to overkill (in war; I noticed him being over-the-top at times in person) until you pointed it out, but it's so true.

It's like he's taken the Targaryens' "Fire and Blood" to heart. Maybe he has secret Targ envy?

[pocochina]

DUDE. Targ envy explains so much. Actually, now that you mention it, a fair amount about House Lannister culture generally - the insularity, the all-or-nothing philosophy, even the dependence on social clout (since the Westerlands' gold means nothing without people agreeing to a currency economy).

[noybusiness]

That reminds me how it galls him that the Lannisters are missing their Valyrian sword, and no one, even a lesser house, will give him theirs.

[pocochina]

I have nothing to add but this is such a neat catch!