I was the victim of an assault that was an intended rape. My assailant was a psychopath and out of his mind at the time, but I've had other men try to initiate sexual behavior with me that I didn't want -- not even boyfriends, just acquaintances who think they have the right to kiss a girl if they feel like it. The problem is huge. Guys have been taught that when a woman says "no" she really means "yes, with coaxing", and that's a HUGE HUGE PROBLEM in our society. We have to tell the men in our lives that's not what it means. We have to tell them "no means if the answer changes to yes because of your pressure, that's coercion". This is a wake-up call-- more women need to tell their guy friends that we WANT them to be involved in changing this problem
( ... )
We need to be unafraid to talk to men about defining consent as NARROWLY as possible, instead of saying "well if she didn't say NOT to it's consent". Guys need to understand the deeper ramifications of unconsented sex. We need to have a society that defines ideal sex as the one which both partners enthusiastically consent to -- without hesitations, wheedling, bribes, threats, or having any partner "talked into" it.
Sadly, the other side of this is teaching girls that it's okay to want sex, and that being "good" doesn't require being nonsexual.
Well, it's not sad to teach that sex is okay -- it's sad that a lot of us grew up thinking that if we were interested and said so we were being bad; hence all the coaxing...
(I required a whole lot of coaxing to do things that I ultimately did want to do. Because every time I allowed anything I was oh, so guilty.)
I suspect the problem is in a way, two-fold. We're taught sex is bad, and then we have sex anyway which fucks us up because we feel like we've done something wrong. So there's two problems -- we're being taught sex is bad, and then we're having sex we weren't 100% okay with. Both are problems, but I suspect many "accidental" rapes (where the man doesn't realize he's being coercive) come out of the second situation, where women let men talk them into having sex they didn't really want to have
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I had so much guilt tied up even in my consentual, pleasurable sex acts that it took literally years to figure out why there were some sexual escapades in my life I just never felt right about. "Why do I feel gross or regretful about that?" I would think. "I mean, I wanted it, right?" Well no, actually, I didn't want it, I just agreed to it.
I've even initiated sex acts I was reluctant or downright unhappy to perform, because I felt it was expected, and how the hell does a guy figure out THAT unless we talk to them about it?! I bet most men don't even know that happens. Obviously, that's not something men can do a whole lot about in terms of telling the difference, but in terms of creating an environment within the relationship in which there is no undercurrent of pressure, and the notion that mutual desire is mutually desired (and intrinsically desirable), there's everything they can do.
How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJune 11 2009, 04:37:29 UTC
I've even initiated sex acts I was reluctant or downright unhappy to perform, because I felt it was expected, and how the hell does a guy figure out THAT unless we talk to them about it?!
It is possible.
I have on several occasions stopped sex that I wanted and that my partner initiated, because if I hadn't already built up some confidence about her (that I understood her well enough to trust the situation) I would always stop and ask some questions. One of them commented on this post, actually
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Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?_the_firedancerJune 11 2009, 07:11:37 UTC
Oh holy fuck this comment & the preceding ones disturbed me on so many levels. I had to walk away from the discussion to think because it bothered me so much.
I had a kneejerk, 'hey, how dare this guy think he knows better than the woman concerned what she wants to do' moment - then I mentally slapped myself because you're only reserving your inarguable right to not do something you're not sure about. Went away and thought some more.
Realised that my discomfort and annoyance boiled down to:
a) And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no It's true, and necessary, and it points up just how fucked up our society is. It's hard to acknowledge that.
b)I don't think I've ever before heard a male outside of a clinical setting express or demonstrate this kind of awareness of the oh-so-common female problem of being complicit in the violation of our own boundaries.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJune 12 2009, 00:33:11 UTC
I've been thinking about this reply on and off since I saw it, and I feel like saying "Ow, but thank you all the same" too :)
I agree with you that this is an unfortunate situation.
Here's something that really got me about this: What I'm describing, stripped of its details, is the fact that I feel like I have to mistrust women in a particular way, even women I like and who themselves have done nothing to merit my mistrust, and you're right, it is unfair to a majority of them. It's just something I feel like I'd better do anyway, because of how the world is. Because I know that there's a significant risk if I don't do it, that even though it may not be necessary in a majority of cases, it does turn out to be necessary in a significant enough subset of cases, and I can't tell in advance which ones those are going to be
( ... )
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?all_the_piesJune 11 2009, 19:04:30 UTC
This is what it takes for me to trust a man. To really, truly trust him and believe not only that he wouldn't ever harm me intentionally, but that he understands the potential to harm me unintentionally, and that this is something he will take measures to prevent.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?starwatcher307June 14 2009, 15:56:53 UTC
. In an ongoing involvement with a woman, one thing I do is wait for the first "no" she says to something I clearly want, whatever it is. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It just has to be clear that it's something I want and she says no. Then I thank her for it, and tell her that by saying "no" to something she knew I'd prefer she say "yes" to, she has now given me confidence to trust her "yes" more. And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no, which is unfortunate, but I think it's what we have to do in this world.Wow; thank you for this. You've helped me put my finger on something I've been chewing over
( ... )
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJune 19 2009, 03:50:21 UTC
My initial reaction upon reading this was a defensive "who is he to decide for me what my 'yes' means?" since I've never had a problem with saying no, myself. But that's a bullshit response, because on reflection I'm actually grateful and wish there were more guys who'd err on the side of caution to avoid making mistakes
Actually I think your point is a good one, not BS, and here's how I usually deal with it: Be up front with her about what I'm thinking
( ... )
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?irenesJuly 21 2009, 20:45:32 UTC
Wow. I really think this is great ...
...but what about in the context of more casual encounters? How can a comparable level of confidence in the enthusiastic consent be gained in a short-term situation?
Reply
Sadly, the other side of this is teaching girls that it's okay to want sex, and that being "good" doesn't require being nonsexual.
Well, it's not sad to teach that sex is okay -- it's sad that a lot of us grew up thinking that if we were interested and said so we were being bad; hence all the coaxing...
(I required a whole lot of coaxing to do things that I ultimately did want to do. Because every time I allowed anything I was oh, so guilty.)
Reply
Reply
I had so much guilt tied up even in my consentual, pleasurable sex acts that it took literally years to figure out why there were some sexual escapades in my life I just never felt right about. "Why do I feel gross or regretful about that?" I would think. "I mean, I wanted it, right?" Well no, actually, I didn't want it, I just agreed to it.
I've even initiated sex acts I was reluctant or downright unhappy to perform, because I felt it was expected, and how the hell does a guy figure out THAT unless we talk to them about it?! I bet most men don't even know that happens. Obviously, that's not something men can do a whole lot about in terms of telling the difference, but in terms of creating an environment within the relationship in which there is no undercurrent of pressure, and the notion that mutual desire is mutually desired (and intrinsically desirable), there's everything they can do.
Reply
It is possible.
I have on several occasions stopped sex that I wanted and that my partner initiated, because if I hadn't already built up some confidence about her (that I understood her well enough to trust the situation) I would always stop and ask some questions. One of them commented on this post, actually ( ... )
Reply
Reply
I had a kneejerk, 'hey, how dare this guy think he knows better than the woman concerned what she wants to do' moment - then I mentally slapped myself because you're only reserving your inarguable right to not do something you're not sure about.
Went away and thought some more.
Realised that my discomfort and annoyance boiled down to:
a) And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no
It's true, and necessary, and it points up just how fucked up our society is. It's hard to acknowledge that.
b)I don't think I've ever before heard a male outside of a clinical setting express or demonstrate this kind of awareness of the oh-so-common female problem of being complicit in the violation of our own boundaries.
c) There but for the grace of god go I.
Ow, but thank you all the same.
Reply
I agree with you that this is an unfortunate situation.
Here's something that really got me about this: What I'm describing, stripped of its details, is the fact that I feel like I have to mistrust women in a particular way, even women I like and who themselves have done nothing to merit my mistrust, and you're right, it is unfair to a majority of them. It's just something I feel like I'd better do anyway, because of how the world is. Because I know that there's a significant risk if I don't do it, that even though it may not be necessary in a majority of cases, it does turn out to be necessary in a significant enough subset of cases, and I can't tell in advance which ones those are going to be ( ... )
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I just wanted to say thank you.
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In an ongoing involvement with a woman, one thing I do is wait for the first "no" she says to something I clearly want, whatever it is. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It just has to be clear that it's something I want and she says no. Then I thank her for it, and tell her that by saying "no" to something she knew I'd prefer she say "yes" to, she has now given me confidence to trust her "yes" more. And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no, which is unfortunate, but I think it's what we have to do in this world.Wow; thank you for this. You've helped me put my finger on something I've been chewing over ( ... )
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
My initial reaction upon reading this was a defensive "who is he to decide for me what my 'yes' means?" since I've never had a problem with saying no, myself. But that's a bullshit response, because on reflection I'm actually grateful and wish there were more guys who'd err on the side of caution to avoid making mistakes
Actually I think your point is a good one, not BS, and here's how I usually deal with it: Be up front with her about what I'm thinking ( ... )Reply
...but what about in the context of more casual encounters? How can a comparable level of confidence in the enthusiastic consent be gained in a short-term situation?
Reply
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