I was the victim of an assault that was an intended rape. My assailant was a psychopath and out of his mind at the time, but I've had other men try to initiate sexual behavior with me that I didn't want -- not even boyfriends, just acquaintances who think they have the right to kiss a girl if they feel like it. The problem is huge. Guys have been taught that when a woman says "no" she really means "yes, with coaxing", and that's a HUGE HUGE PROBLEM in our society. We have to tell the men in our lives that's not what it means. We have to tell them "no means if the answer changes to yes because of your pressure, that's coercion". This is a wake-up call-- more women need to tell their guy friends that we WANT them to be involved in changing this problem.
I'm going to talk about 3 men who I love very much. One of them is my husband. We've been together for 2 years. I have never met anyone as kind, gentle, or understanding. At one point, due to my emotional issues from the rape attempt (which happened a few months after I got married), we didn't have sex for four months and I could barely handle him touching me -- he never gave up, never pushed me, and continues to be gentle and wait for me to tell him when I'm in the right emotional place for intimacy. I survived my assault because he was loving, supportive, and never used my trust of him against me while I was recovering. He's a rare kind of guy.
The other two are my friends. My dear, amazing friends, Richard and Shawn, who make me feel pretty damn safe. Shawn and I can go walking after the sun sets, out and about, and I feel completely safe -- both that he will protect me from external danger and that I'll be safe from HIM. I can sit with Shawn alone in his apartment and never once worry he's going to assault me. I've seen him go out of his way to walk or drive female friends through dangerous areas so that their risk level is reduced. It's very much the same situation with Richard. They're just great guys. They're aware of the dangerous women face and actively seek to minimize them.
My brothers have also been raised right -- they know what rape is and the correct response to a potential rape situation (protect the woman from any assailant, including potentially yourself). That makes 5 men, 5 great men, who are trying to do the right thing. It's not a dozen, it's not 50, but at least they're out there. Knowing they're out there makes me feel safer. It makes me feel like it's not pointless to hope that society can change. We need more discussions like these. We need to be unafraid to talk about rape prevention. We need to be unafraid to talk to men about defining consent as NARROWLY as possible, instead of saying "well if she didn't say NOT to it's consent". Guys need to understand the deeper ramifications of unconsented sex. We need to have a society that defines ideal sex as the one which both partners enthusiastically consent to -- without hesitations, wheedling, bribes, threats, or having any partner "talked into" it.
We need to be unafraid to talk to men about defining consent as NARROWLY as possible, instead of saying "well if she didn't say NOT to it's consent". Guys need to understand the deeper ramifications of unconsented sex. We need to have a society that defines ideal sex as the one which both partners enthusiastically consent to -- without hesitations, wheedling, bribes, threats, or having any partner "talked into" it.
Sadly, the other side of this is teaching girls that it's okay to want sex, and that being "good" doesn't require being nonsexual.
Well, it's not sad to teach that sex is okay -- it's sad that a lot of us grew up thinking that if we were interested and said so we were being bad; hence all the coaxing...
(I required a whole lot of coaxing to do things that I ultimately did want to do. Because every time I allowed anything I was oh, so guilty.)
I suspect the problem is in a way, two-fold. We're taught sex is bad, and then we have sex anyway which fucks us up because we feel like we've done something wrong. So there's two problems -- we're being taught sex is bad, and then we're having sex we weren't 100% okay with. Both are problems, but I suspect many "accidental" rapes (where the man doesn't realize he's being coercive) come out of the second situation, where women let men talk them into having sex they didn't really want to have.
I have heard way too many stories that weren't like yours about wanting sex but needing help to admit so, but rather went like this, "I didn't want it but he talked me into it and I regretted it". It's a very sticky issue -- it's particularly hard for men to know which case is which, and whether they are empowering their girlfriends, or oppressing them by not taking a "no" as an actual no. I suspect most decent guys would rather err on the side of caution once they realize this is even a problem, even if it means passing up sex with someone who's potentially willing with encouragement -- I don't know many men who would take pride in accidentally causing a girl they care about distress and potentially emotional trauma by pressuring her to have sex she didn't really want but eventually "consented" to.
I had so much guilt tied up even in my consentual, pleasurable sex acts that it took literally years to figure out why there were some sexual escapades in my life I just never felt right about. "Why do I feel gross or regretful about that?" I would think. "I mean, I wanted it, right?" Well no, actually, I didn't want it, I just agreed to it.
I've even initiated sex acts I was reluctant or downright unhappy to perform, because I felt it was expected, and how the hell does a guy figure out THAT unless we talk to them about it?! I bet most men don't even know that happens. Obviously, that's not something men can do a whole lot about in terms of telling the difference, but in terms of creating an environment within the relationship in which there is no undercurrent of pressure, and the notion that mutual desire is mutually desired (and intrinsically desirable), there's everything they can do.
How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJune 11 2009, 04:37:29 UTC
I've even initiated sex acts I was reluctant or downright unhappy to perform, because I felt it was expected, and how the hell does a guy figure out THAT unless we talk to them about it?!
It is possible.
I have on several occasions stopped sex that I wanted and that my partner initiated, because if I hadn't already built up some confidence about her (that I understood her well enough to trust the situation) I would always stop and ask some questions. One of them commented on this post, actually.
Another case: Friend I was very attracted to was coming to visit and stay over. I'd expressed interest and I knew from that conversation that she did not want to be sexually involved, so I assumed there would be no sex. She stayed in my bed. That night after we'd done talking, when we were either fallen asleep or half-asleep, she started initiating sex - rubbing against me, kissing, etc. So I tapped her shoulder and said hey, wait a minute... I would love to, but I thought you didn't want to? She responded that I was right, she didn't actually want to do it. I told her she was welcome to change her mind, and if she did so, I'd want to hear why (I already knew the reasons she didn't want to). We went back to sleep.
And then once again, in the middle of the night, I woke up to find her doing the same thing. So I tapped her again and asked, have you changed your mind? And no, it turned out, she hadn't really. She was enjoying the beginning of sexual activity and would've probably happily continued at the time, but once asked about it, she realized that was not what she wanted to do.
I should note that I've probably made some mistakes on this front too. There's at least one occasion which, in hindsight, I realize I did not have an adequate level of confidence to have gone to the level of sexual activity that I did with that partner. At the time, it seemed like she wanted to, but in hindsight, I'm not entirely sure, and since I've lost contact with her, I can't check in and find out. I hope I've learned from that. (It's possible the experience was entirely positive for her, I just realize that I didn't collect enough information to be properly confident of that)
.....
So, "how the hell does a guy figure that out?" Some ideas... [in the next comment, because I ran past the limit]
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJune 11 2009, 04:38:18 UTC
So, "how the hell does a guy figure that out?" Some ideas for guys (and please pass these along)...
Remind everyone, but especially guys, to think about the future and not just the present. Okay, so you're (possibly) about to have sex... and then what? How will you and this partner interact afterwards? Project a bit into the future, imagine it, and then ask your partner-to-be the questions that come to mind, the ones that will help you figure out what that near-future will be like.
Next, think about it this way: Your goal in a sexual interaction should include "my partner will feel more positively about this, and about me, afterward". Do you know that's going to happen? If you don't, what do you need to ask her in order to find out?
Consider how well you know her. If you don't know her, how well can you read her words and signals? The less confidence you have about those things, the more you need to explicitly ask to find out. Has she been able to say both "yes" and "no" to you, easily? If she hasn't, then you probably don't know her well enough yet to have much confidence, so you need to be careful.
[ In an ongoing involvement with a woman, one thing I do is wait for the first "no" she says to something I clearly want, whatever it is. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It just has to be clear that it's something I want and she says no. Then I thank her for it, and tell her that by saying "no" to something she knew I'd prefer she say "yes" to, she has now given me confidence to trust her "yes" more. And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no, which is unfortunate, but I think it's what we have to do in this world. ]
Do you have any doubts? Any doubts at all? probe those doubts - again, by asking her the questions that come to mind. If she can't answer the questions, then you can't feel comfortable, so be cautious and don't do it.
Sure, you may miss out on some really fun sex. You may miss out on sex that your partner would want and would enjoy and would cause no problems. However, realize that you have to err in one direction or another, that it's a tradeoff: If you make a mistake in the other direction, the risk is that she'll suffer enduring trauma. So be aware of that tradeoff, and tune it in the direction of more missed sex, rather than more trauma for women.
I think a lot of it comes down to stepping out of the moment enough to notice doubt, and to be willing to stop and ask questions. And to thinking past the immediate, to imagining future interactions with her.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?_the_firedancerJune 11 2009, 07:11:37 UTC
Oh holy fuck this comment & the preceding ones disturbed me on so many levels. I had to walk away from the discussion to think because it bothered me so much.
I had a kneejerk, 'hey, how dare this guy think he knows better than the woman concerned what she wants to do' moment - then I mentally slapped myself because you're only reserving your inarguable right to not do something you're not sure about. Went away and thought some more.
Realised that my discomfort and annoyance boiled down to:
a) And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no It's true, and necessary, and it points up just how fucked up our society is. It's hard to acknowledge that.
b)I don't think I've ever before heard a male outside of a clinical setting express or demonstrate this kind of awareness of the oh-so-common female problem of being complicit in the violation of our own boundaries.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJune 12 2009, 00:33:11 UTC
I've been thinking about this reply on and off since I saw it, and I feel like saying "Ow, but thank you all the same" too :)
I agree with you that this is an unfortunate situation.
Here's something that really got me about this: What I'm describing, stripped of its details, is the fact that I feel like I have to mistrust women in a particular way, even women I like and who themselves have done nothing to merit my mistrust, and you're right, it is unfair to a majority of them. It's just something I feel like I'd better do anyway, because of how the world is. Because I know that there's a significant risk if I don't do it, that even though it may not be necessary in a majority of cases, it does turn out to be necessary in a significant enough subset of cases, and I can't tell in advance which ones those are going to be.
Which sounds familiar, here on this post.
Of course it's not the same risk. I could get by without practicing this kind of mistrust, without fear for my personal safety. So personally, I'm in a much better place than woman, who unfortunately have to mistrust men they like and who haven't done anything to merit that mistrust, out of fear for personal safety.
But it's still similar in some ways. And perhaps you see how this thought cycle might be similar for men who encounter what we've been discussing on this post: First, find out that women mistrust them even though they don't feel they've done anything to merit that mistrust, and react by feeling very hurt about that. Then, only later, learn to understand why it's reasonable, and start to deal with it more constructively.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?all_the_piesJune 11 2009, 19:04:30 UTC
This is what it takes for me to trust a man. To really, truly trust him and believe not only that he wouldn't ever harm me intentionally, but that he understands the potential to harm me unintentionally, and that this is something he will take measures to prevent.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?starwatcher307June 14 2009, 15:56:53 UTC
. In an ongoing involvement with a woman, one thing I do is wait for the first "no" she says to something I clearly want, whatever it is. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It just has to be clear that it's something I want and she says no. Then I thank her for it, and tell her that by saying "no" to something she knew I'd prefer she say "yes" to, she has now given me confidence to trust her "yes" more. And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no, which is unfortunate, but I think it's what we have to do in this world.
Wow; thank you for this. You've helped me put my finger on something I've been chewing over.
In short, old boyfriend moved away. The relationship had been a bit unequal, and neither of us were emotionally mature. (And it was 30 years ago, when feminism was a blip on my horizon.) I realize now that he frequently 'talked me into' some activities / behaviors by ignoring my 'no's; I went along because he was my boyfriend, and a girl should support her boyfriend, right? (Nothing extreme, but things like always spending time as he wanted, instead of as I wanted.)
A few months ago, he contacted me by email. He'd like to call me and talk, but couldn't get through. (I now use my land number only for reference and my cell number, of course, isn't in the book.) We discussed it via email. His issue was, he doesn't feel he can express himself adequately in writing. My issue is, I know I don't argue well verbally; I need time to think out my answer, and it's too easy to get distracted by answering 'this' point my opponent raised, and completely forget to bring up 'that' aspect which I feel is very important.
I mulled it over, then told him that, in email, he could take all the time he needed to be sure he was expressing exactly what he wanted to say, but that a phone conversation put way more pressure on me. I pointed out that we seemed to have competing needs, and one of us was going to be uncomfortable. I told him firmly that it was my call, and I would do what was most comfortable for me. I'd only communicate by email for now, though that might change later.
I haven't heard from him since, which... yeah. It's rather chilling that, the first time I say a truly definite 'no', and stick to it, he cuts off communication. I'm sure he thinks of himself as 'that guy'; he was always doing thoughtful little things for me - which drove me crazy, because I could do them myself, dammit! But, no, he's now proved that he really isn't 'that guy'.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJune 19 2009, 03:50:21 UTC
My initial reaction upon reading this was a defensive "who is he to decide for me what my 'yes' means?" since I've never had a problem with saying no, myself. But that's a bullshit response, because on reflection I'm actually grateful and wish there were more guys who'd err on the side of caution to avoid making mistakes
Actually I think your point is a good one, not BS, and here's how I usually deal with it: Be up front with her about what I'm thinking.
I have on some occasions, particularly in the context of dating, had women hold back out of worry of hurting me - usually it's a case of "if I do this with him he might get more emotionally attached than I feel like I can properly reciprocate, and then he'll get hurt". If this happens without my input, I get annoyed if I find out later, because I wish I'd had the option to at least hear the concern and answer it. If she's doing because she thinks it's for my own good, then I deserve the option to evaluate what my own good is - that's respect.
Similarly, if I have doubts about my sexual partner-to-be's judgement of what she wants, and I ask some questions to get some mental bearings, and I still have doubts and don't want to go forward with what she wants us to do because of that, I tell her. I explain what I'm thinking. Now of course it's not just for her - it's also for me. As _the_firedancer pointed out earlier in this thread, I'm reserving my right not to do something I don't feel comfortable with. However, if the main reason I don't feel comfortable with is because I'm not ready to trust what she says about what she wants, telling her what I'm thinking is showing respect. And also, giving her the option to tell me I'm wrong. I still get to decide what I'm comfortable with, and may still choose to wait, but it's out in the open.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?irenesJuly 21 2009, 20:45:32 UTC
Wow. I really think this is great ...
...but what about in the context of more casual encounters? How can a comparable level of confidence in the enthusiastic consent be gained in a short-term situation?
I'm going to talk about 3 men who I love very much. One of them is my husband. We've been together for 2 years. I have never met anyone as kind, gentle, or understanding. At one point, due to my emotional issues from the rape attempt (which happened a few months after I got married), we didn't have sex for four months and I could barely handle him touching me -- he never gave up, never pushed me, and continues to be gentle and wait for me to tell him when I'm in the right emotional place for intimacy. I survived my assault because he was loving, supportive, and never used my trust of him against me while I was recovering. He's a rare kind of guy.
The other two are my friends. My dear, amazing friends, Richard and Shawn, who make me feel pretty damn safe. Shawn and I can go walking after the sun sets, out and about, and I feel completely safe -- both that he will protect me from external danger and that I'll be safe from HIM. I can sit with Shawn alone in his apartment and never once worry he's going to assault me. I've seen him go out of his way to walk or drive female friends through dangerous areas so that their risk level is reduced. It's very much the same situation with Richard. They're just great guys. They're aware of the dangerous women face and actively seek to minimize them.
My brothers have also been raised right -- they know what rape is and the correct response to a potential rape situation (protect the woman from any assailant, including potentially yourself). That makes 5 men, 5 great men, who are trying to do the right thing. It's not a dozen, it's not 50, but at least they're out there. Knowing they're out there makes me feel safer. It makes me feel like it's not pointless to hope that society can change. We need more discussions like these. We need to be unafraid to talk about rape prevention. We need to be unafraid to talk to men about defining consent as NARROWLY as possible, instead of saying "well if she didn't say NOT to it's consent". Guys need to understand the deeper ramifications of unconsented sex. We need to have a society that defines ideal sex as the one which both partners enthusiastically consent to -- without hesitations, wheedling, bribes, threats, or having any partner "talked into" it.
Reply
Sadly, the other side of this is teaching girls that it's okay to want sex, and that being "good" doesn't require being nonsexual.
Well, it's not sad to teach that sex is okay -- it's sad that a lot of us grew up thinking that if we were interested and said so we were being bad; hence all the coaxing...
(I required a whole lot of coaxing to do things that I ultimately did want to do. Because every time I allowed anything I was oh, so guilty.)
Reply
I have heard way too many stories that weren't like yours about wanting sex but needing help to admit so, but rather went like this, "I didn't want it but he talked me into it and I regretted it". It's a very sticky issue -- it's particularly hard for men to know which case is which, and whether they are empowering their girlfriends, or oppressing them by not taking a "no" as an actual no. I suspect most decent guys would rather err on the side of caution once they realize this is even a problem, even if it means passing up sex with someone who's potentially willing with encouragement -- I don't know many men who would take pride in accidentally causing a girl they care about distress and potentially emotional trauma by pressuring her to have sex she didn't really want but eventually "consented" to.
Reply
I had so much guilt tied up even in my consentual, pleasurable sex acts that it took literally years to figure out why there were some sexual escapades in my life I just never felt right about. "Why do I feel gross or regretful about that?" I would think. "I mean, I wanted it, right?" Well no, actually, I didn't want it, I just agreed to it.
I've even initiated sex acts I was reluctant or downright unhappy to perform, because I felt it was expected, and how the hell does a guy figure out THAT unless we talk to them about it?! I bet most men don't even know that happens. Obviously, that's not something men can do a whole lot about in terms of telling the difference, but in terms of creating an environment within the relationship in which there is no undercurrent of pressure, and the notion that mutual desire is mutually desired (and intrinsically desirable), there's everything they can do.
Reply
It is possible.
I have on several occasions stopped sex that I wanted and that my partner initiated, because if I hadn't already built up some confidence about her (that I understood her well enough to trust the situation) I would always stop and ask some questions. One of them commented on this post, actually.
Another case: Friend I was very attracted to was coming to visit and stay over. I'd expressed interest and I knew from that conversation that she did not want to be sexually involved, so I assumed there would be no sex. She stayed in my bed. That night after we'd done talking, when we were either fallen asleep or half-asleep, she started initiating sex - rubbing against me, kissing, etc. So I tapped her shoulder and said hey, wait a minute... I would love to, but I thought you didn't want to? She responded that I was right, she didn't actually want to do it. I told her she was welcome to change her mind, and if she did so, I'd want to hear why (I already knew the reasons she didn't want to). We went back to sleep.
And then once again, in the middle of the night, I woke up to find her doing the same thing. So I tapped her again and asked, have you changed your mind? And no, it turned out, she hadn't really. She was enjoying the beginning of sexual activity and would've probably happily continued at the time, but once asked about it, she realized that was not what she wanted to do.
I should note that I've probably made some mistakes on this front too. There's at least one occasion which, in hindsight, I realize I did not have an adequate level of confidence to have gone to the level of sexual activity that I did with that partner. At the time, it seemed like she wanted to, but in hindsight, I'm not entirely sure, and since I've lost contact with her, I can't check in and find out. I hope I've learned from that. (It's possible the experience was entirely positive for her, I just realize that I didn't collect enough information to be properly confident of that)
.....
So, "how the hell does a guy figure that out?" Some ideas... [in the next comment, because I ran past the limit]
Reply
Remind everyone, but especially guys, to think about the future and not just the present. Okay, so you're (possibly) about to have sex... and then what? How will you and this partner interact afterwards? Project a bit into the future, imagine it, and then ask your partner-to-be the questions that come to mind, the ones that will help you figure out what that near-future will be like.
Next, think about it this way: Your goal in a sexual interaction should include "my partner will feel more positively about this, and about me, afterward". Do you know that's going to happen? If you don't, what do you need to ask her in order to find out?
Consider how well you know her. If you don't know her, how well can you read her words and signals? The less confidence you have about those things, the more you need to explicitly ask to find out. Has she been able to say both "yes" and "no" to you, easily? If she hasn't, then you probably don't know her well enough yet to have much confidence, so you need to be careful.
[ In an ongoing involvement with a woman, one thing I do is wait for the first "no" she says to something I clearly want, whatever it is. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It just has to be clear that it's something I want and she says no. Then I thank her for it, and tell her that by saying "no" to something she knew I'd prefer she say "yes" to, she has now given me confidence to trust her "yes" more. And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no, which is unfortunate, but I think it's what we have to do in this world. ]
Do you have any doubts? Any doubts at all? probe those doubts - again, by asking her the questions that come to mind. If she can't answer the questions, then you can't feel comfortable, so be cautious and don't do it.
Sure, you may miss out on some really fun sex. You may miss out on sex that your partner would want and would enjoy and would cause no problems. However, realize that you have to err in one direction or another, that it's a tradeoff: If you make a mistake in the other direction, the risk is that she'll suffer enduring trauma. So be aware of that tradeoff, and tune it in the direction of more missed sex, rather than more trauma for women.
I think a lot of it comes down to stepping out of the moment enough to notice doubt, and to be willing to stop and ask questions. And to thinking past the immediate, to imagining future interactions with her.
Reply
I had a kneejerk, 'hey, how dare this guy think he knows better than the woman concerned what she wants to do' moment - then I mentally slapped myself because you're only reserving your inarguable right to not do something you're not sure about.
Went away and thought some more.
Realised that my discomfort and annoyance boiled down to:
a) And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no
It's true, and necessary, and it points up just how fucked up our society is. It's hard to acknowledge that.
b)I don't think I've ever before heard a male outside of a clinical setting express or demonstrate this kind of awareness of the oh-so-common female problem of being complicit in the violation of our own boundaries.
c) There but for the grace of god go I.
Ow, but thank you all the same.
Reply
I agree with you that this is an unfortunate situation.
Here's something that really got me about this: What I'm describing, stripped of its details, is the fact that I feel like I have to mistrust women in a particular way, even women I like and who themselves have done nothing to merit my mistrust, and you're right, it is unfair to a majority of them. It's just something I feel like I'd better do anyway, because of how the world is. Because I know that there's a significant risk if I don't do it, that even though it may not be necessary in a majority of cases, it does turn out to be necessary in a significant enough subset of cases, and I can't tell in advance which ones those are going to be.
Which sounds familiar, here on this post.
Of course it's not the same risk. I could get by without practicing this kind of mistrust, without fear for my personal safety. So personally, I'm in a much better place than woman, who unfortunately have to mistrust men they like and who haven't done anything to merit that mistrust, out of fear for personal safety.
But it's still similar in some ways. And perhaps you see how this thought cycle might be similar for men who encounter what we've been discussing on this post: First, find out that women mistrust them even though they don't feel they've done anything to merit that mistrust, and react by feeling very hurt about that. Then, only later, learn to understand why it's reasonable, and start to deal with it more constructively.
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I just wanted to say thank you.
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In an ongoing involvement with a woman, one thing I do is wait for the first "no" she says to something I clearly want, whatever it is. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It just has to be clear that it's something I want and she says no. Then I thank her for it, and tell her that by saying "no" to something she knew I'd prefer she say "yes" to, she has now given me confidence to trust her "yes" more. And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no, which is unfortunate, but I think it's what we have to do in this world.
Wow; thank you for this. You've helped me put my finger on something I've been chewing over.
In short, old boyfriend moved away. The relationship had been a bit unequal, and neither of us were emotionally mature. (And it was 30 years ago, when feminism was a blip on my horizon.) I realize now that he frequently 'talked me into' some activities / behaviors by ignoring my 'no's; I went along because he was my boyfriend, and a girl should support her boyfriend, right? (Nothing extreme, but things like always spending time as he wanted, instead of as I wanted.)
A few months ago, he contacted me by email. He'd like to call me and talk, but couldn't get through. (I now use my land number only for reference and my cell number, of course, isn't in the book.) We discussed it via email. His issue was, he doesn't feel he can express himself adequately in writing. My issue is, I know I don't argue well verbally; I need time to think out my answer, and it's too easy to get distracted by answering 'this' point my opponent raised, and completely forget to bring up 'that' aspect which I feel is very important.
I mulled it over, then told him that, in email, he could take all the time he needed to be sure he was expressing exactly what he wanted to say, but that a phone conversation put way more pressure on me. I pointed out that we seemed to have competing needs, and one of us was going to be uncomfortable. I told him firmly that it was my call, and I would do what was most comfortable for me. I'd only communicate by email for now, though that might change later.
I haven't heard from him since, which... yeah. It's rather chilling that, the first time I say a truly definite 'no', and stick to it, he cuts off communication. I'm sure he thinks of himself as 'that guy'; he was always doing thoughtful little things for me - which drove me crazy, because I could do them myself, dammit! But, no, he's now proved that he really isn't 'that guy'.
Thank you for showing me the difference.
.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
My initial reaction upon reading this was a defensive "who is he to decide for me what my 'yes' means?" since I've never had a problem with saying no, myself. But that's a bullshit response, because on reflection I'm actually grateful and wish there were more guys who'd err on the side of caution to avoid making mistakes
Actually I think your point is a good one, not BS, and here's how I usually deal with it: Be up front with her about what I'm thinking.
I have on some occasions, particularly in the context of dating, had women hold back out of worry of hurting me - usually it's a case of "if I do this with him he might get more emotionally attached than I feel like I can properly reciprocate, and then he'll get hurt". If this happens without my input, I get annoyed if I find out later, because I wish I'd had the option to at least hear the concern and answer it. If she's doing because she thinks it's for my own good, then I deserve the option to evaluate what my own good is - that's respect.
Similarly, if I have doubts about my sexual partner-to-be's judgement of what she wants, and I ask some questions to get some mental bearings, and I still have doubts and don't want to go forward with what she wants us to do because of that, I tell her. I explain what I'm thinking. Now of course it's not just for her - it's also for me. As _the_firedancer pointed out earlier in this thread, I'm reserving my right not to do something I don't feel comfortable with. However, if the main reason I don't feel comfortable with is because I'm not ready to trust what she says about what she wants, telling her what I'm thinking is showing respect. And also, giving her the option to tell me I'm wrong. I still get to decide what I'm comfortable with, and may still choose to wait, but it's out in the open.
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...but what about in the context of more casual encounters? How can a comparable level of confidence in the enthusiastic consent be gained in a short-term situation?
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