On rape and men (Oh yes, I'm going there)

[cereta]

Yes, we've hit one of those times. Something has been building, and it has to come out.

Comments

[delle]

thank you.

I am *still* trying to explain to my husband of many many years that the world he lives in is not the world I live in. and while he is a good man, there are too many of his brethren out there that aren't.

he doesn't get it.

so thank you for saying this.

[cereta]

It was hard to say. I had a long talk with the spouse before saying it, and while he maintains (and I believe) that he would never have been the guy to rape a girl passed out on his bed, (a) he can name guys among his teenage friends about whom he's really not sure, and (b) he admits, he doesn't know if he would have been the guy to stop another guy. It was a hard thing to say, with his daughter hugging his leg, and I'm so proud that he gets just why I'm so angry and afraid, even as I hate that this is something rare enough to be proud of, if that makes sense.

[delle]

I wanted to follow up with a Good Guy story about my husband: we went out bar-hopping this past weekend. A girl walked by, wearing shortshortSHORT shorts and high heels - I expressed some concern at her attire and my husband - completely unprovoked - said "there's no such thing as 'asking for it'. she should be able to wear whatever she wants to wear."

After reading so many of the comments here and the stories, I just had to kiss and hug him. He's not perfect, but he's starting to 'get it'.

(and, as others have said, thank you for this safe and respectful discussion)

[brightlotusmoon]

My husband has that same attitude. Several times, he has stopped female friends from being raped (almost killed one guy, actually), and when he told me about those, he said, "I shouldn't have had to. The men shouldn't have been raping the women in the first place."

[musesfool]

When I was a junior in college, I went to Acapulco on Spring Break with a about fourteen friends; we were pretty evenly split between guys and girls and there had been various hookups and entanglements in and among the group. One night, I went to the guys' room to evade this other guy I'd been hooking up with; I was drunk, and they were drunk and there was a lot more tequila consumed than was healthy for any of us

[cereta]

Thank you for telling this story. I really believe we should tell them, not because such acts are so worthy of praise, but because boys need to hear such stories, to hear how good men act.

And yes, GOD, if there has been one thing I have learned in my brief time as a mother, it's how much men are sometimes praised for NOT acting like raving dickheads, and how said it is that we do that. Men should be angry about that, not at the women who point it out, but at the men who create that impression.

[tzikeh]

Men should be angry about that

Chris Rock does a bit about this pervasive attitude that men who *don't* treat women like shit should receive praise for it. I love him a little.

I had a discussion (briefly) with a very close male friend the other day about Pixar, and its power over small children, and the message it sends to both girls and boys about men and women. He argued, quite sincerely, that the cowgirl in Toy Story 2 was a *great* role model for women.

I had to stop talking to him, and I was so, so disillusioned about him. But more, about the idea that even the most open-minded, liberal guys I know are really that blind, still.

[cereta]

Oh, GOD yes. I have a spouse who wholeheartedly approved me posting something that amounted, "You know, guys, you really do suck sometimes," and I still have to stop conversations at times. At the very least, though, he gets that sometimes, he just. doesn't. get it.

And lord, get me started on Pixar.

[notpoetry]

I have, more often than not, been helped home or to safety by men when I was not in a state -- emotionally, psychologically, physically -- to get myself there alone.

Sadly, those are not the times that stick out in my mind.

The times -- two, granted, but plural -- when I was not? When I was taken advantage of because I let my guard down, and trusted someone I shouldn't have, and paid the price? Are the times that I remember every day. And I can't help that. I would forget them if I can. But I can't.

[cereta]

{{hugs}} And that you have had that experience makes me so angry. This should not be. It should not be as common as it is. And it should not be such a taboo to say it, at a bare minimum.

[sugar_for_sugar]

Thanks for this.

Sometimes I almost feel like I shouldn't bother dating. Men don't get it and I'm not bi unfortunately so what's the point? I know that's really cynical but I like to think I'm allowed that cathartic dose of such at the moment in light of my recent breakup... which was partly because of his inability to get things like this and my inability to feel like he had my back where it mattered.

[cereta]

I am the first person to tell you: I love my spouse, and the fact that I have overcome not only my natural solitary tendencies but my increasing, "the FUCK?" on gender matters is proof of how much, Fortunately, I found a guy who, even if he doesn't always get it, doesn't tell me not to be pissed off, you know?

[rosefox]

My girlfriend and I have both watched our Kinsey scores get higher as we think more about feminism. It's not that we don't like guys. We do. We're even both in long-term deeply affectionate relationships with guys. It's that most guys are oblivious assholes. It's so much easier to find a woman who's worth my time than a man, because at least I won't have to take the time to enlighten her about how much shit men put women through without even thinking about it.

My husband was raised by a single mom in a mostly matriarchal family. I have repeated thanked his mother for doing the groundwork so I didn't have to.

[sugar_for_sugar]

*nod* Honestly, sometimes I almost feel like a "bad feminist" because I do look forward to finding a permanent romantic partner someday. I just... get so discouraged. Especially because I'm completely daunted by the idea of dating again. It feels so unsafe. The worst, scariest, most unsafe situations I've been in weren't even the ones with strangers, they were with guys who were (supposed to be) my friends, even boyfriends

[minim_calibre]

Because men raping women is systemic, and cultural, and yes it is the patriarchy and it is misogyny and it is men thinking they are entitled to women's bodies. "Well, what did she expect, getting drunk like that?" isn't salt in the wound, it is the foundation of the problem. The idea that if a woman is not actively preventing a man from sticking his penis into her (and even then, if she's an enemy), he is doing nothing wrong, and hey, who can blame him, IS THE PROBLEM.

Yes, this. And every step that we, as women, have grown up taking (which effectively boils down to Trust No One, and which I was reading a flister talk about earlier today) is just us trying to treat the symptom.

[cereta]

Ntozake Shange has a couple of poems that when you unite them amount to, "women are expected to know what men are rapists, but it's the men we trust who rape us, therefore, we must treat all men as latent rapists." And God, that sucks SO HARD, but what sucks even more is that men get mad at US for it, not at the depressing number of their fellow men who create that impression.

[minim_calibre]

Every so often, I will find myself thinking of career paths I didn't for reasons of caution. (Especially when my high school friend/editor was still doing his 'going around the world, reporting on dangerous situations' thing. Which he may be back on, as he's just left the company we both worked for.)

And then I'm torn between angry and depressed.

[cereta]

I look back on all the times I sat tense in the passenger seat of a guy I barely knew, and I so angry that I had to feel that way. And slashspouse talks about getting Frog martial arts lessons, and I'm angrier still, even as I'm ready to write the check.