Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJune 11 2009, 04:38:18 UTC
So, "how the hell does a guy figure that out?" Some ideas for guys (and please pass these along)...
Remind everyone, but especially guys, to think about the future and not just the present. Okay, so you're (possibly) about to have sex... and then what? How will you and this partner interact afterwards? Project a bit into the future, imagine it, and then ask your partner-to-be the questions that come to mind, the ones that will help you figure out what that near-future will be like.
Next, think about it this way: Your goal in a sexual interaction should include "my partner will feel more positively about this, and about me, afterward". Do you know that's going to happen? If you don't, what do you need to ask her in order to find out?
Consider how well you know her. If you don't know her, how well can you read her words and signals? The less confidence you have about those things, the more you need to explicitly ask to find out. Has she been able to say both "yes" and "no" to you, easily? If she hasn't, then you probably don't know her well enough yet to have much confidence, so you need to be careful.
[ In an ongoing involvement with a woman, one thing I do is wait for the first "no" she says to something I clearly want, whatever it is. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It just has to be clear that it's something I want and she says no. Then I thank her for it, and tell her that by saying "no" to something she knew I'd prefer she say "yes" to, she has now given me confidence to trust her "yes" more. And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no, which is unfortunate, but I think it's what we have to do in this world. ]
Do you have any doubts? Any doubts at all? probe those doubts - again, by asking her the questions that come to mind. If she can't answer the questions, then you can't feel comfortable, so be cautious and don't do it.
Sure, you may miss out on some really fun sex. You may miss out on sex that your partner would want and would enjoy and would cause no problems. However, realize that you have to err in one direction or another, that it's a tradeoff: If you make a mistake in the other direction, the risk is that she'll suffer enduring trauma. So be aware of that tradeoff, and tune it in the direction of more missed sex, rather than more trauma for women.
I think a lot of it comes down to stepping out of the moment enough to notice doubt, and to be willing to stop and ask questions. And to thinking past the immediate, to imagining future interactions with her.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?_the_firedancerJune 11 2009, 07:11:37 UTC
Oh holy fuck this comment & the preceding ones disturbed me on so many levels. I had to walk away from the discussion to think because it bothered me so much.
I had a kneejerk, 'hey, how dare this guy think he knows better than the woman concerned what she wants to do' moment - then I mentally slapped myself because you're only reserving your inarguable right to not do something you're not sure about. Went away and thought some more.
Realised that my discomfort and annoyance boiled down to:
a) And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no It's true, and necessary, and it points up just how fucked up our society is. It's hard to acknowledge that.
b)I don't think I've ever before heard a male outside of a clinical setting express or demonstrate this kind of awareness of the oh-so-common female problem of being complicit in the violation of our own boundaries.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJune 12 2009, 00:33:11 UTC
I've been thinking about this reply on and off since I saw it, and I feel like saying "Ow, but thank you all the same" too :)
I agree with you that this is an unfortunate situation.
Here's something that really got me about this: What I'm describing, stripped of its details, is the fact that I feel like I have to mistrust women in a particular way, even women I like and who themselves have done nothing to merit my mistrust, and you're right, it is unfair to a majority of them. It's just something I feel like I'd better do anyway, because of how the world is. Because I know that there's a significant risk if I don't do it, that even though it may not be necessary in a majority of cases, it does turn out to be necessary in a significant enough subset of cases, and I can't tell in advance which ones those are going to be.
Which sounds familiar, here on this post.
Of course it's not the same risk. I could get by without practicing this kind of mistrust, without fear for my personal safety. So personally, I'm in a much better place than woman, who unfortunately have to mistrust men they like and who haven't done anything to merit that mistrust, out of fear for personal safety.
But it's still similar in some ways. And perhaps you see how this thought cycle might be similar for men who encounter what we've been discussing on this post: First, find out that women mistrust them even though they don't feel they've done anything to merit that mistrust, and react by feeling very hurt about that. Then, only later, learn to understand why it's reasonable, and start to deal with it more constructively.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?all_the_piesJune 11 2009, 19:04:30 UTC
This is what it takes for me to trust a man. To really, truly trust him and believe not only that he wouldn't ever harm me intentionally, but that he understands the potential to harm me unintentionally, and that this is something he will take measures to prevent.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?starwatcher307June 14 2009, 15:56:53 UTC
. In an ongoing involvement with a woman, one thing I do is wait for the first "no" she says to something I clearly want, whatever it is. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It just has to be clear that it's something I want and she says no. Then I thank her for it, and tell her that by saying "no" to something she knew I'd prefer she say "yes" to, she has now given me confidence to trust her "yes" more. And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no, which is unfortunate, but I think it's what we have to do in this world.
Wow; thank you for this. You've helped me put my finger on something I've been chewing over.
In short, old boyfriend moved away. The relationship had been a bit unequal, and neither of us were emotionally mature. (And it was 30 years ago, when feminism was a blip on my horizon.) I realize now that he frequently 'talked me into' some activities / behaviors by ignoring my 'no's; I went along because he was my boyfriend, and a girl should support her boyfriend, right? (Nothing extreme, but things like always spending time as he wanted, instead of as I wanted.)
A few months ago, he contacted me by email. He'd like to call me and talk, but couldn't get through. (I now use my land number only for reference and my cell number, of course, isn't in the book.) We discussed it via email. His issue was, he doesn't feel he can express himself adequately in writing. My issue is, I know I don't argue well verbally; I need time to think out my answer, and it's too easy to get distracted by answering 'this' point my opponent raised, and completely forget to bring up 'that' aspect which I feel is very important.
I mulled it over, then told him that, in email, he could take all the time he needed to be sure he was expressing exactly what he wanted to say, but that a phone conversation put way more pressure on me. I pointed out that we seemed to have competing needs, and one of us was going to be uncomfortable. I told him firmly that it was my call, and I would do what was most comfortable for me. I'd only communicate by email for now, though that might change later.
I haven't heard from him since, which... yeah. It's rather chilling that, the first time I say a truly definite 'no', and stick to it, he cuts off communication. I'm sure he thinks of himself as 'that guy'; he was always doing thoughtful little things for me - which drove me crazy, because I could do them myself, dammit! But, no, he's now proved that he really isn't 'that guy'.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJune 19 2009, 03:50:21 UTC
My initial reaction upon reading this was a defensive "who is he to decide for me what my 'yes' means?" since I've never had a problem with saying no, myself. But that's a bullshit response, because on reflection I'm actually grateful and wish there were more guys who'd err on the side of caution to avoid making mistakes
Actually I think your point is a good one, not BS, and here's how I usually deal with it: Be up front with her about what I'm thinking.
I have on some occasions, particularly in the context of dating, had women hold back out of worry of hurting me - usually it's a case of "if I do this with him he might get more emotionally attached than I feel like I can properly reciprocate, and then he'll get hurt". If this happens without my input, I get annoyed if I find out later, because I wish I'd had the option to at least hear the concern and answer it. If she's doing because she thinks it's for my own good, then I deserve the option to evaluate what my own good is - that's respect.
Similarly, if I have doubts about my sexual partner-to-be's judgement of what she wants, and I ask some questions to get some mental bearings, and I still have doubts and don't want to go forward with what she wants us to do because of that, I tell her. I explain what I'm thinking. Now of course it's not just for her - it's also for me. As _the_firedancer pointed out earlier in this thread, I'm reserving my right not to do something I don't feel comfortable with. However, if the main reason I don't feel comfortable with is because I'm not ready to trust what she says about what she wants, telling her what I'm thinking is showing respect. And also, giving her the option to tell me I'm wrong. I still get to decide what I'm comfortable with, and may still choose to wait, but it's out in the open.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?irenesJuly 21 2009, 20:45:32 UTC
Wow. I really think this is great ...
...but what about in the context of more casual encounters? How can a comparable level of confidence in the enthusiastic consent be gained in a short-term situation?
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?zeborahnzJuly 21 2009, 21:20:30 UTC
Then you make sure that your partner a) is not intoxicated and b) has an obvious, easy and safe 'escape route'. That is, make it very clear that you're not physically stopping them walking out the door; that you're not guilt-tripping them; and that if they need help getting home safely then you'll provide it without expectation of quid pro quo.
In a more casual encounter, you won't be so familiar with each other's body language, so you should probably do more by actual spoken communication.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?rosefoxJuly 21 2009, 21:29:17 UTC
I recently had occasion to point out to a guy I know that he was physically blocking my friend G's escape route--G was actually backed into a corner--while saying things like "Next time you're in town you should totally have sex with me!". When I called him on it, he was rather taken aback and said "Now I'm all self-conscious!" (good!) and then turned to G while still blocking the path to the door and said "I'm not making you uncomfortable, am I?" (augh, not good, because someone already feeling intimidated is not going to give you an honest answer to that question, as evinced by G saying "No, you're not, it's fine" and then emailing me later to thank me for intervening).
In this case, both the people involved are gay men, but one of the reasons I stepped in was because it was such a perfect analogue to dynamics I've seen between men and women, over and over and over again. So don't just make it clear that you're not stopping someone from walking out the door: be conscious of where you're standing, and don't put yourself (or any part of yourself, like an arm or leg) between the other person and the exit.
Re: How the hell does a guy figure that out?cosJuly 21 2009, 21:31:28 UTC
I think by "more casual encounaters" you mean "sex with someone you don't know and aren't necessarily trying to start a friendship or relationship with", and that you don't mean "non-sexual encounters".
If I got the meaning of your question right, then that's the kind of situation that some of what I suggested applies to most, I think. The less you know someone, and the less context and history you have with them, the more useful it is to ask questions and make sure, by direct conversation, that you both know what each other wants.
Also, I would *still* think of the future, even if it's not supposed to be that start of a relationship. Even if you don't intend to see that person again, you can still imagine "what if?". What if she turns out to be your cousin's next girlfriend, after he meets her next year in a completely random circumstance? What if you run into her at a club or party, when one of your friends who you came with strikes up a conversation with her? Pretend that you might have some future interactions, and aim to ensure that you both feel good towards each other. Even if you never do meet again, having planned for that in your imagination will make the encounter you have *now* better for both of you, and avoid some possibly terrible mistakes.
Remind everyone, but especially guys, to think about the future and not just the present. Okay, so you're (possibly) about to have sex... and then what? How will you and this partner interact afterwards? Project a bit into the future, imagine it, and then ask your partner-to-be the questions that come to mind, the ones that will help you figure out what that near-future will be like.
Next, think about it this way: Your goal in a sexual interaction should include "my partner will feel more positively about this, and about me, afterward". Do you know that's going to happen? If you don't, what do you need to ask her in order to find out?
Consider how well you know her. If you don't know her, how well can you read her words and signals? The less confidence you have about those things, the more you need to explicitly ask to find out. Has she been able to say both "yes" and "no" to you, easily? If she hasn't, then you probably don't know her well enough yet to have much confidence, so you need to be careful.
[ In an ongoing involvement with a woman, one thing I do is wait for the first "no" she says to something I clearly want, whatever it is. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It just has to be clear that it's something I want and she says no. Then I thank her for it, and tell her that by saying "no" to something she knew I'd prefer she say "yes" to, she has now given me confidence to trust her "yes" more. And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no, which is unfortunate, but I think it's what we have to do in this world. ]
Do you have any doubts? Any doubts at all? probe those doubts - again, by asking her the questions that come to mind. If she can't answer the questions, then you can't feel comfortable, so be cautious and don't do it.
Sure, you may miss out on some really fun sex. You may miss out on sex that your partner would want and would enjoy and would cause no problems. However, realize that you have to err in one direction or another, that it's a tradeoff: If you make a mistake in the other direction, the risk is that she'll suffer enduring trauma. So be aware of that tradeoff, and tune it in the direction of more missed sex, rather than more trauma for women.
I think a lot of it comes down to stepping out of the moment enough to notice doubt, and to be willing to stop and ask questions. And to thinking past the immediate, to imagining future interactions with her.
Reply
I had a kneejerk, 'hey, how dare this guy think he knows better than the woman concerned what she wants to do' moment - then I mentally slapped myself because you're only reserving your inarguable right to not do something you're not sure about.
Went away and thought some more.
Realised that my discomfort and annoyance boiled down to:
a) And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no
It's true, and necessary, and it points up just how fucked up our society is. It's hard to acknowledge that.
b)I don't think I've ever before heard a male outside of a clinical setting express or demonstrate this kind of awareness of the oh-so-common female problem of being complicit in the violation of our own boundaries.
c) There but for the grace of god go I.
Ow, but thank you all the same.
Reply
I agree with you that this is an unfortunate situation.
Here's something that really got me about this: What I'm describing, stripped of its details, is the fact that I feel like I have to mistrust women in a particular way, even women I like and who themselves have done nothing to merit my mistrust, and you're right, it is unfair to a majority of them. It's just something I feel like I'd better do anyway, because of how the world is. Because I know that there's a significant risk if I don't do it, that even though it may not be necessary in a majority of cases, it does turn out to be necessary in a significant enough subset of cases, and I can't tell in advance which ones those are going to be.
Which sounds familiar, here on this post.
Of course it's not the same risk. I could get by without practicing this kind of mistrust, without fear for my personal safety. So personally, I'm in a much better place than woman, who unfortunately have to mistrust men they like and who haven't done anything to merit that mistrust, out of fear for personal safety.
But it's still similar in some ways. And perhaps you see how this thought cycle might be similar for men who encounter what we've been discussing on this post: First, find out that women mistrust them even though they don't feel they've done anything to merit that mistrust, and react by feeling very hurt about that. Then, only later, learn to understand why it's reasonable, and start to deal with it more constructively.
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I just wanted to say thank you.
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In an ongoing involvement with a woman, one thing I do is wait for the first "no" she says to something I clearly want, whatever it is. Doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. It just has to be clear that it's something I want and she says no. Then I thank her for it, and tell her that by saying "no" to something she knew I'd prefer she say "yes" to, she has now given me confidence to trust her "yes" more. And I really do at least partly mistrust every "yes" before that first no, which is unfortunate, but I think it's what we have to do in this world.
Wow; thank you for this. You've helped me put my finger on something I've been chewing over.
In short, old boyfriend moved away. The relationship had been a bit unequal, and neither of us were emotionally mature. (And it was 30 years ago, when feminism was a blip on my horizon.) I realize now that he frequently 'talked me into' some activities / behaviors by ignoring my 'no's; I went along because he was my boyfriend, and a girl should support her boyfriend, right? (Nothing extreme, but things like always spending time as he wanted, instead of as I wanted.)
A few months ago, he contacted me by email. He'd like to call me and talk, but couldn't get through. (I now use my land number only for reference and my cell number, of course, isn't in the book.) We discussed it via email. His issue was, he doesn't feel he can express himself adequately in writing. My issue is, I know I don't argue well verbally; I need time to think out my answer, and it's too easy to get distracted by answering 'this' point my opponent raised, and completely forget to bring up 'that' aspect which I feel is very important.
I mulled it over, then told him that, in email, he could take all the time he needed to be sure he was expressing exactly what he wanted to say, but that a phone conversation put way more pressure on me. I pointed out that we seemed to have competing needs, and one of us was going to be uncomfortable. I told him firmly that it was my call, and I would do what was most comfortable for me. I'd only communicate by email for now, though that might change later.
I haven't heard from him since, which... yeah. It's rather chilling that, the first time I say a truly definite 'no', and stick to it, he cuts off communication. I'm sure he thinks of himself as 'that guy'; he was always doing thoughtful little things for me - which drove me crazy, because I could do them myself, dammit! But, no, he's now proved that he really isn't 'that guy'.
Thank you for showing me the difference.
.
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(The comment has been removed)
My initial reaction upon reading this was a defensive "who is he to decide for me what my 'yes' means?" since I've never had a problem with saying no, myself. But that's a bullshit response, because on reflection I'm actually grateful and wish there were more guys who'd err on the side of caution to avoid making mistakes
Actually I think your point is a good one, not BS, and here's how I usually deal with it: Be up front with her about what I'm thinking.
I have on some occasions, particularly in the context of dating, had women hold back out of worry of hurting me - usually it's a case of "if I do this with him he might get more emotionally attached than I feel like I can properly reciprocate, and then he'll get hurt". If this happens without my input, I get annoyed if I find out later, because I wish I'd had the option to at least hear the concern and answer it. If she's doing because she thinks it's for my own good, then I deserve the option to evaluate what my own good is - that's respect.
Similarly, if I have doubts about my sexual partner-to-be's judgement of what she wants, and I ask some questions to get some mental bearings, and I still have doubts and don't want to go forward with what she wants us to do because of that, I tell her. I explain what I'm thinking. Now of course it's not just for her - it's also for me. As _the_firedancer pointed out earlier in this thread, I'm reserving my right not to do something I don't feel comfortable with. However, if the main reason I don't feel comfortable with is because I'm not ready to trust what she says about what she wants, telling her what I'm thinking is showing respect. And also, giving her the option to tell me I'm wrong. I still get to decide what I'm comfortable with, and may still choose to wait, but it's out in the open.
Reply
...but what about in the context of more casual encounters? How can a comparable level of confidence in the enthusiastic consent be gained in a short-term situation?
Reply
In a more casual encounter, you won't be so familiar with each other's body language, so you should probably do more by actual spoken communication.
Reply
In this case, both the people involved are gay men, but one of the reasons I stepped in was because it was such a perfect analogue to dynamics I've seen between men and women, over and over and over again. So don't just make it clear that you're not stopping someone from walking out the door: be conscious of where you're standing, and don't put yourself (or any part of yourself, like an arm or leg) between the other person and the exit.
Reply
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Realistically? See zeborahnz's reply above.
Reply
If I got the meaning of your question right, then that's the kind of situation that some of what I suggested applies to most, I think. The less you know someone, and the less context and history you have with them, the more useful it is to ask questions and make sure, by direct conversation, that you both know what each other wants.
Also, I would *still* think of the future, even if it's not supposed to be that start of a relationship. Even if you don't intend to see that person again, you can still imagine "what if?". What if she turns out to be your cousin's next girlfriend, after he meets her next year in a completely random circumstance? What if you run into her at a club or party, when one of your friends who you came with strikes up a conversation with her? Pretend that you might have some future interactions, and aim to ensure that you both feel good towards each other. Even if you never do meet again, having planned for that in your imagination will make the encounter you have *now* better for both of you, and avoid some possibly terrible mistakes.
Reply
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