but to have Lee only ever have loved that 'angel' Kara... It makes me so angry because I think there was always the danger that Lee put Kara on a pedestalExactly. For many non Lee fans it often seemed like his feelings were bordering with worship and that he loved only the ideal Kara he created in his mind and rejected her screwed up side, had a tendency to put her failures in her face and make her feel unworthy and not measuring up to his expectations. So to say she has always been his angel could be interpreted as an implication that Lee loved some imaginary fairy and never the real complex fucked up Kara Thrace, which is bullshit because we all know that Kara loved the real Lee and not just Apollo, Commander Adama or the President (unlike Dee) and Lee loved and respected the real Kara as a whole, unlike Anders. His growth after her death and return was among other things about him allowing her to make mistakes and still loving her and supporting. They both showed each other some sides of one another that they never opened to anyone
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to say she has always been his angel could be interpreted as an implication that Lee loved some imaginary fairy and never the real complex fucked up Kara Thrace Yeah, exactly. And while I know that Jamie was not meaning to reduce her to one thing--he made a point of explaining that Kara was many things to Lee--I feel like it's just another instance of the propagation of Ron's vision of Kara as angel, as construct. I also don't like the implication that that's somehow 'amazing' or groundbreaking. It's a really simplistic copout to me: instead of showing a real, complicacted messy individual, or actually tackling some--SHOCK!--science fiction to explain how Kara could have appeared to die and then return, they get to handwave everything we saw of Kara from Maelstrom on as her in angel form.
He didn’t know she wasn’t real, for fuck’s sake! RIGHT. It's not like he had known but had been struggling to come to terms with it and then finally managed to do so. In fact, you could say that he was actively in denial. Based on their conversation
( ... )
I feel like it's just another instance of the propagation of Ron's vision of Kara as angel, as construct. I also don't like the implication that that's somehow 'amazing' or groundbreaking.
That’s why I can’t make myself watch that interview, even though I love Jamie to bits and like seeing him making an effort to speak French, which is kind of adorable.
In fact, you could say that he was actively in denial. Based on their conversation in 4.18, he was so in love with Kara that he was just happy to have her in any form, he really didn't want to engage with the issue of her being 'dead'.Yep. But as I said elsewhere, that episode was written by Michael Taylor who’s the father of UB and one of the biggest K/L shippers among the crew. I wish he wrote the finale as well
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it seems like Jamie and Katee had no idea what was awaiting Lee and Kara in the finale two episodes when they filmed it. *nods* I remember how much Katee played it as Kara being totally in love with Lee. I knew then the writing would never support that, but it goes to show that even Katee didn't know at that stage they'd let K/S win out.
it was either a way to screw with the fans and make their last scene together as cold as possible just for the sake of inflicting immense pain only because he can or RDM meant her abrupt disappearance to be perceived as Kara not being emotionally strong enough to tell Lee she was leaving him I actually felt it was meant to contrast with the Kara/Sam ending so that no one was left in any doubt about which relationship was the 'true' one. I think they were fighting against Kara/Lee having more chemistry, and therefore made the scene as cold and abrupt as possible, because anything else would have outshone the K/S.
her “I love you” little speech wasn’t even scripted, so why can’t I care less about this
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Dudes. WORD. Just word to all of this (your post and Mariks' response)
I get that JB would take this spin to try to make it okay for himself as someone who invested so much in this relationship playing Lee. But...just But.
And to further infuriate you, that scene in Islanded? RDM said it was supposed to clue us in to the idea that Lee knew she wasn't real and had accepted it. Apparently we were supposed to pay attention to the "It doesn't matter" and not the "YOU'RE HERE" part. Total bull.
And apparently Jane Espenson has been spouting some theory about what if Kara was NEVER a real person and always an angel. Thanks. Way to wipe out the most complex, flawed, and interesting human character on the show like that.
There are so very many things wrong with this finale that you could spend your whole life meta-posting about it and never run out of issues.
RDM said it was supposed to clue us in to the idea that Lee knew she wasn't real and had accepted it. Well that worked didn't it? RDM needs to get a fucking clue and realise that if a scene is SUPPOSED to do something then it needs to be EXECUTED that way. I don't know anyone who took from that scene 'oh, Lee's totally cool with Kara being non-corporeal now and will be fine if she just floats away'. What part of that scene acknowledged that Lee knew Kara might DISAPPEAR?! Swing it the other way and finding out someone is alive after death but being ok with that might mean that you thought they were, oh I don't know, IMMORTAL or something. Not exactly a stretch!
Jane Espenson has been spouting some theory about what if Kara was NEVER a real person and always an angel. Thanks. Way to wipe out the most complex, flawed, and interesting human character on the show like that.OMG, if I'd known that I would have written the post about that, not Jamie's understandable throwaway line about Kara's meaning to Lee... (which is less offensive in
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why, then, was Kara shown as having a very real and vivid internal life in Season 4?
I'm with you - still angry about the end, and angriest about Kara's fate. I don't understand how Ron could go so wrong with his main characters - the first ones he'd ever conceived for the series, if we are to believe his own account. How sloppy.
I understand running out of time, and biting more than one can chew, but this was choking on a colossal scale. He had two years to write this resolution. I can't believe he couldn't come up with something at least half as good as any of the fans who wrote their own version of the characters' endings. He could've swallowed his pride and asked someone on his writing staff to help craft this, for crying out loud! This was worse than bad. This was self-contradictory and puerile and - even though I don't believe a show should cater to its fans - the equivalent of spitting in fans' eyes. We hoped for an epic conclusion, and instead we got epic fail
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but this is worse than finding out the tooth fairy doesn't exist. This is him unmasking the tooth fairy, and taking back all the money she left you and the rest of your piggy bank besides. Hee! This made me laugh out loud. ILU, Indi! You should totally rant more often. :-)
I shouldn't laugh. I know it hurts. I can't let them take my version of pilots away from me or my ability to write or make vids about them. That does make me sad and angry and there is a part of me that just refuses. NO. I will figure out a way to still write and vid them if it kills me. Once upon a time RDM came up with a girl named Kara Thrace. He forgot who she really was (thought she was him) but I haven't. She was stubborn and angry and never gave up. And now I'm left with a little bit of her in me. I will figure this out. Watching this show brought me such wonderful gifts and hell, I'm keeping 'em. The tooth fairy can't renege. I'm keeping my bank, the money, and the magic too. Oh yes, I am dammit!
Don't worry, even those of us who HAVE talked the finale to death are still ragey. *g*
Anyway, I agree with all this. Jamie is just very fond of reading deep meaning into things -- must be that comp lit degree. ;) I do think, though, that when he said Kara was "his angel," that he wasn't really implying that she was his and ONLY his. It's more an acknowledgment of who she is, an angel, and that in his heart she is his. Kind of like if I were to say "He's my Lee," he's not really MY Lee, but....you know what I mean. Maybe. LOL.
But yeah, the finale is still a steaming pile of crap.
I do think, though, that when he said Kara was "his angel," that he wasn't really implying that she was his and ONLY his. It's more an acknowledgment of who she is, an angel, and that in his heart she is his. Kind of like if I were to say "He's my Lee," he's not really MY Lee, but....you know what I mean.
As I said to Bop, I wish Jamie and Ron and everyone else wouldn't use the term angel because I feel it's overly simplistic, but what you said, yes, I totally agree and get it. :)
I absolutely agree Jamie was very clear that he did not mean that Kara was really ONLY his angel. And good call on the part of it where he claimed her as 'his'.
My rant isn't really against Jamie, I totally see where he got that from, I'm really just railing against the whole of Season 4 that built Kara as (frak, I still find it hard to write the word) an angel. I MEAN REALLY.
I kind of figure that in the end, if that's what Jamie needs to tell himself to feel good about the finale, then that's fine, and I'm just glad he's so poetic about it that he can make fangirls swoon even while they're disagreeing with him. *g*
I'm really just railing against the whole of Season 4 that built Kara as (frak, I still find it hard to write the word) an angel. I MEAN REALLY.
Ohh, I have downloaded that but am afraid of getting triggered into another rage fit. :D I'm not so good with the denial, as you can see... I'll work on it.
That's what I think infuriates me about the whole ending -- her 'ascension' writes off all of her accomplishments at the very least since her return. Really, by saying that there was a purpose and a destiny all along, it writes off her entire life. It's absolutely insane, so I completely understand the rage!!
But the vid, it's something different.
It's... it's Kara being drug into fate while kicking and screaming. In a subtle way, it's math and music and memory. It's anger and confusion and abandonment. It's not even as depressing as it sounds because it's not angelic!Kara (and whosoever purports that as an ideal should be drawn and quartered without mercy) and therefore it does her the respect of... of being human amidst inhuman circumstances and still going forward.
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Yeah, exactly. And while I know that Jamie was not meaning to reduce her to one thing--he made a point of explaining that Kara was many things to Lee--I feel like it's just another instance of the propagation of Ron's vision of Kara as angel, as construct. I also don't like the implication that that's somehow 'amazing' or groundbreaking. It's a really simplistic copout to me: instead of showing a real, complicacted messy individual, or actually tackling some--SHOCK!--science fiction to explain how Kara could have appeared to die and then return, they get to handwave everything we saw of Kara from Maelstrom on as her in angel form.
He didn’t know she wasn’t real, for fuck’s sake! RIGHT. It's not like he had known but had been struggling to come to terms with it and then finally managed to do so. In fact, you could say that he was actively in denial. Based on their conversation ( ... )
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That’s why I can’t make myself watch that interview, even though I love Jamie to bits and like seeing him making an effort to speak French, which is kind of adorable.
In fact, you could say that he was actively in denial. Based on their conversation in 4.18, he was so in love with Kara that he was just happy to have her in any form, he really didn't want to engage with the issue of her being 'dead'.Yep. But as I said elsewhere, that episode was written by Michael Taylor who’s the father of UB and one of the biggest K/L shippers among the crew. I wish he wrote the finale as well ( ... )
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*nods* I remember how much Katee played it as Kara being totally in love with Lee. I knew then the writing would never support that, but it goes to show that even Katee didn't know at that stage they'd let K/S win out.
it was either a way to screw with the fans and make their last scene together as cold as possible just for the sake of inflicting immense pain only because he can or RDM meant her abrupt disappearance to be perceived as Kara not being emotionally strong enough to tell Lee she was leaving him
I actually felt it was meant to contrast with the Kara/Sam ending so that no one was left in any doubt about which relationship was the 'true' one. I think they were fighting against Kara/Lee having more chemistry, and therefore made the scene as cold and abrupt as possible, because anything else would have outshone the K/S.
her “I love you” little speech wasn’t even scripted, so why can’t I care less about this ( ... )
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I get that JB would take this spin to try to make it okay for himself as someone who invested so much in this relationship playing Lee. But...just But.
And to further infuriate you, that scene in Islanded? RDM said it was supposed to clue us in to the idea that Lee knew she wasn't real and had accepted it. Apparently we were supposed to pay attention to the "It doesn't matter" and not the "YOU'RE HERE" part. Total bull.
And apparently Jane Espenson has been spouting some theory about what if Kara was NEVER a real person and always an angel. Thanks. Way to wipe out the most complex, flawed, and interesting human character on the show like that.
There are so very many things wrong with this finale that you could spend your whole life meta-posting about it and never run out of issues.
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Well that worked didn't it? RDM needs to get a fucking clue and realise that if a scene is SUPPOSED to do something then it needs to be EXECUTED that way. I don't know anyone who took from that scene 'oh, Lee's totally cool with Kara being non-corporeal now and will be fine if she just floats away'. What part of that scene acknowledged that Lee knew Kara might DISAPPEAR?! Swing it the other way and finding out someone is alive after death but being ok with that might mean that you thought they were, oh I don't know, IMMORTAL or something. Not exactly a stretch!
Jane Espenson has been spouting some theory about what if Kara was NEVER a real person and always an angel. Thanks. Way to wipe out the most complex, flawed, and interesting human character on the show like that.OMG, if I'd known that I would have written the post about that, not Jamie's understandable throwaway line about Kara's meaning to Lee... (which is less offensive in ( ... )
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I'm with you - still angry about the end, and angriest about Kara's fate. I don't understand how Ron could go so wrong with his main characters - the first ones he'd ever conceived for the series, if we are to believe his own account. How sloppy.
I understand running out of time, and biting more than one can chew, but this was choking on a colossal scale. He had two years to write this resolution. I can't believe he couldn't come up with something at least half as good as any of the fans who wrote their own version of the characters' endings. He could've swallowed his pride and asked someone on his writing staff to help craft this, for crying out loud! This was worse than bad. This was self-contradictory and puerile and - even though I don't believe a show should cater to its fans - the equivalent of spitting in fans' eyes. We hoped for an epic conclusion, and instead we got epic fail ( ... )
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And a whole lot of word here too, to Boppy and to Mariks' comment as well!
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Hee! This made me laugh out loud. ILU, Indi! You should totally rant more often. :-)
I shouldn't laugh. I know it hurts. I can't let them take my version of pilots away from me or my ability to write or make vids about them. That does make me sad and angry and there is a part of me that just refuses. NO. I will figure out a way to still write and vid them if it kills me. Once upon a time RDM came up with a girl named Kara Thrace. He forgot who she really was (thought she was him) but I haven't. She was stubborn and angry and never gave up. And now I'm left with a little bit of her in me. I will figure this out. Watching this show brought me such wonderful gifts and hell, I'm keeping 'em. The tooth fairy can't renege. I'm keeping my bank, the money, and the magic too. Oh yes, I am dammit!
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Anyway, I agree with all this. Jamie is just very fond of reading deep meaning into things -- must be that comp lit degree. ;) I do think, though, that when he said Kara was "his angel," that he wasn't really implying that she was his and ONLY his. It's more an acknowledgment of who she is, an angel, and that in his heart she is his. Kind of like if I were to say "He's my Lee," he's not really MY Lee, but....you know what I mean. Maybe. LOL.
But yeah, the finale is still a steaming pile of crap.
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As I said to Bop, I wish Jamie and Ron and everyone else wouldn't use the term angel because I feel it's overly simplistic, but what you said, yes, I totally agree and get it. :)
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My rant isn't really against Jamie, I totally see where he got that from, I'm really just railing against the whole of Season 4 that built Kara as (frak, I still find it hard to write the word) an angel. I MEAN REALLY.
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I'm really just railing against the whole of Season 4 that built Kara as (frak, I still find it hard to write the word) an angel. I MEAN REALLY.
Dude, I hear you.
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Speaking of, something you might enjoy if you haven't seen it: a Kara vid circa s4, minus the glowy bits, that is beautiful and haunting.
Follow Me Into the Darkness by threezerotwo
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That's what I think infuriates me about the whole ending -- her 'ascension' writes off all of her accomplishments at the very least since her return. Really, by saying that there was a purpose and a destiny all along, it writes off her entire life. It's absolutely insane, so I completely understand the rage!!
But the vid, it's something different.
It's... it's Kara being drug into fate while kicking and screaming. In a subtle way, it's math and music and memory. It's anger and confusion and abandonment. It's not even as depressing as it sounds because it's not angelic!Kara (and whosoever purports that as an ideal should be drawn and quartered without mercy) and therefore it does her the respect of... of being human amidst inhuman circumstances and still going forward.
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