but to have Lee only ever have loved that 'angel' Kara... It makes me so angry because I think there was always the danger that Lee put Kara on a pedestalExactly. For many non Lee fans it often seemed like his feelings were bordering with worship and that he loved only the ideal Kara he created in his mind and rejected her screwed up side, had a tendency to put her failures in her face and make her feel unworthy and not measuring up to his expectations. So to say she has always been his angel could be interpreted as an implication that Lee loved some imaginary fairy and never the real complex fucked up Kara Thrace, which is bullshit because we all know that Kara loved the real Lee and not just Apollo, Commander Adama or the President (unlike Dee) and Lee loved and respected the real Kara as a whole, unlike Anders. His growth after her death and return was among other things about him allowing her to make mistakes and still loving her and supporting. They both showed each other some sides of one another that they never opened to anyone
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to say she has always been his angel could be interpreted as an implication that Lee loved some imaginary fairy and never the real complex fucked up Kara Thrace Yeah, exactly. And while I know that Jamie was not meaning to reduce her to one thing--he made a point of explaining that Kara was many things to Lee--I feel like it's just another instance of the propagation of Ron's vision of Kara as angel, as construct. I also don't like the implication that that's somehow 'amazing' or groundbreaking. It's a really simplistic copout to me: instead of showing a real, complicacted messy individual, or actually tackling some--SHOCK!--science fiction to explain how Kara could have appeared to die and then return, they get to handwave everything we saw of Kara from Maelstrom on as her in angel form.
He didn’t know she wasn’t real, for fuck’s sake! RIGHT. It's not like he had known but had been struggling to come to terms with it and then finally managed to do so. In fact, you could say that he was actively in denial. Based on their conversation
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I feel like it's just another instance of the propagation of Ron's vision of Kara as angel, as construct. I also don't like the implication that that's somehow 'amazing' or groundbreaking.
That’s why I can’t make myself watch that interview, even though I love Jamie to bits and like seeing him making an effort to speak French, which is kind of adorable.
In fact, you could say that he was actively in denial. Based on their conversation in 4.18, he was so in love with Kara that he was just happy to have her in any form, he really didn't want to engage with the issue of her being 'dead'.Yep. But as I said elsewhere, that episode was written by Michael Taylor who’s the father of UB and one of the biggest K/L shippers among the crew. I wish he wrote the finale as well
( ... )
it seems like Jamie and Katee had no idea what was awaiting Lee and Kara in the finale two episodes when they filmed it. *nods* I remember how much Katee played it as Kara being totally in love with Lee. I knew then the writing would never support that, but it goes to show that even Katee didn't know at that stage they'd let K/S win out.
it was either a way to screw with the fans and make their last scene together as cold as possible just for the sake of inflicting immense pain only because he can or RDM meant her abrupt disappearance to be perceived as Kara not being emotionally strong enough to tell Lee she was leaving him I actually felt it was meant to contrast with the Kara/Sam ending so that no one was left in any doubt about which relationship was the 'true' one. I think they were fighting against Kara/Lee having more chemistry, and therefore made the scene as cold and abrupt as possible, because anything else would have outshone the K/S.
her “I love you” little speech wasn’t even scripted, so why can’t I care less about this
( ... )
So she was basically tortured after death? Trapped in a consciousness she'd rather not inhabit? That's TERRIBLE.
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Her agony was infinite in real life and even after death. RDM made her a hostage of that fucking destiny thing, her connection to the Cylons… Moreover, her mother’s abuse was meant “to prepare her to accept her own destiny” which was to commit suicide as we know… so do we have to conclude that her mother’s horrible behavior was justified now?!! You know… it makes me so sick I want to slit throats and bit the living shit out of them for what they’d done to my dear Kara… I’m kind of having a Lee reaction to someone torturing Kara to death and even after death! Makes me see red!
And I don't think the one thing she wanted was to be remembered...Oh, don’t even get me started on this!.. RDM said that he wrote that because he himself is sort of afraid to be forgotten. How’s that for a good reason for Kara’s most terrible fear of all time
( ... )
her mother’s abuse was meant “to prepare her to accept her own destiny” which was to commit suicide as we know… so do we have to conclude that her mother’s horrible behavior was justified now? OMG, yeah, I want to kill things!!!! That's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. *fumes*
he wrote that because he himself is sort of afraid to be forgotten OH FUCK YOU AND YOUR FUCKING EGO, RON. IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU. Man, that proves SO MUCH. Including the fact that Ron used Starbuck to live out some of his own fantasies. Man, he knows NOTHING about character integrity, either personally or in writing.
because that was RDM’s own childhood dream. The guy needs medical help and perpetual ban on the writing job. Wow. Yeah. Um, I kind of agree. He's a fantasist on an insane level, and not a writer... wow, these admissions actually make a lot of sense because they show where his decision making comes from and therefore why it makes no narrative sense. He's not concerned about his work, he's concerned about his self and he can't distinguish
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Yeah, well I railed against that for so long but fandom just shouted me down for being a precious nitpicker (or something). But honestly, it was a big turn-off for me and a sign of the start of being asked to accept completely implausible plots.
I went through that with the mutiny arc...and of course I was wrong to complain during that because Lee and Kara were back together and making out, so WTF was my problem??? Why couldn't I just go along with the vilification of the non-Cylon paired off characters and just bask in the mindless gunporn and Adama hard-onage by the writers???
Because in the end, the Human race got a big FU, the Cylons NEVER owned up to their responsibility for what happened, Adama and Roslin did nothing but use up screentime and abandon everybody, and Lee and Kara??? NOTHING.
So what was the point of ANY of Lee and Kara's scenes in S4??? To flip us the bird for giving a frak about them. That's IT.
Yup. *nods* Ron got the last laugh. Look... I think it was understandable that people's hopes surged at times during Season 4, because we all got used to getting excited about crumbs. But in the mutiny, I remember feeling discomforted that to enjoy my ship I had to ignore the context because I really felt a frak-load more sympathetic to the hundreds of nameless civilians who backed the mutiny. Because, damn, the Adama-Roslin empire was an unmoveable autocracy, and hooking up with the Cylons with LITTLE or NO justification (PR > guns) would piss me off too.
Yeah, I WANTED to cheer for Lee and Kara...but Gods, the writers had them risking their lives for a character that had become a total jackass. LOL. And whether the intent was to be more gray about who was right or wrong, the gunporn love in the final finished story spoke for itself as to what the story ended up really being about. :(
It's like if Superman became a sullen alcoholic that beat up women and threw old people over skyscrapers...YEAH, he's still the "Man of Steel"...but if he's doing that he's NOT a HERO anymore. And you just can't ignore something like that for long. Unfortunately, the writers thought we would.
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Yeah, exactly. And while I know that Jamie was not meaning to reduce her to one thing--he made a point of explaining that Kara was many things to Lee--I feel like it's just another instance of the propagation of Ron's vision of Kara as angel, as construct. I also don't like the implication that that's somehow 'amazing' or groundbreaking. It's a really simplistic copout to me: instead of showing a real, complicacted messy individual, or actually tackling some--SHOCK!--science fiction to explain how Kara could have appeared to die and then return, they get to handwave everything we saw of Kara from Maelstrom on as her in angel form.
He didn’t know she wasn’t real, for fuck’s sake! RIGHT. It's not like he had known but had been struggling to come to terms with it and then finally managed to do so. In fact, you could say that he was actively in denial. Based on their conversation ( ... )
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That’s why I can’t make myself watch that interview, even though I love Jamie to bits and like seeing him making an effort to speak French, which is kind of adorable.
In fact, you could say that he was actively in denial. Based on their conversation in 4.18, he was so in love with Kara that he was just happy to have her in any form, he really didn't want to engage with the issue of her being 'dead'.Yep. But as I said elsewhere, that episode was written by Michael Taylor who’s the father of UB and one of the biggest K/L shippers among the crew. I wish he wrote the finale as well ( ... )
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*nods* I remember how much Katee played it as Kara being totally in love with Lee. I knew then the writing would never support that, but it goes to show that even Katee didn't know at that stage they'd let K/S win out.
it was either a way to screw with the fans and make their last scene together as cold as possible just for the sake of inflicting immense pain only because he can or RDM meant her abrupt disappearance to be perceived as Kara not being emotionally strong enough to tell Lee she was leaving him
I actually felt it was meant to contrast with the Kara/Sam ending so that no one was left in any doubt about which relationship was the 'true' one. I think they were fighting against Kara/Lee having more chemistry, and therefore made the scene as cold and abrupt as possible, because anything else would have outshone the K/S.
her “I love you” little speech wasn’t even scripted, so why can’t I care less about this ( ... )
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That’s exactly what I’m saying. Her agony was infinite in real life and even after death. RDM made her a hostage of that fucking destiny thing, her connection to the Cylons… Moreover, her mother’s abuse was meant “to prepare her to accept her own destiny” which was to commit suicide as we know… so do we have to conclude that her mother’s horrible behavior was justified now?!! You know… it makes me so sick I want to slit throats and bit the living shit out of them for what they’d done to my dear Kara… I’m kind of having a Lee reaction to someone torturing Kara to death and even after death! Makes me see red!
And I don't think the one thing she wanted was to be remembered...Oh, don’t even get me started on this!.. RDM said that he wrote that because he himself is sort of afraid to be forgotten. How’s that for a good reason for Kara’s most terrible fear of all time ( ... )
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OMG, yeah, I want to kill things!!!! That's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. *fumes*
he wrote that because he himself is sort of afraid to be forgotten
OH FUCK YOU AND YOUR FUCKING EGO, RON. IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU. Man, that proves SO MUCH. Including the fact that Ron used Starbuck to live out some of his own fantasies. Man, he knows NOTHING about character integrity, either personally or in writing.
because that was RDM’s own childhood dream. The guy needs medical help and perpetual ban on the writing job.
Wow. Yeah. Um, I kind of agree. He's a fantasist on an insane level, and not a writer... wow, these admissions actually make a lot of sense because they show where his decision making comes from and therefore why it makes no narrative sense. He's not concerned about his work, he's concerned about his self and he can't distinguish ( ... )
Reply
I went through that with the mutiny arc...and of course I was wrong to complain during that because Lee and Kara were back together and making out, so WTF was my problem??? Why couldn't I just go along with the vilification of the non-Cylon paired off characters and just bask in the mindless gunporn and Adama hard-onage by the writers???
Because in the end, the Human race got a big FU, the Cylons NEVER owned up to their responsibility for what happened, Adama and Roslin did nothing but use up screentime and abandon everybody, and Lee and Kara??? NOTHING.
So what was the point of ANY of Lee and Kara's scenes in S4??? To flip us the bird for giving a frak about them. That's IT.
Frak you, Ron.
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It's like if Superman became a sullen alcoholic that beat up women and threw old people over skyscrapers...YEAH, he's still the "Man of Steel"...but if he's doing that he's NOT a HERO anymore. And you just can't ignore something like that for long. Unfortunately, the writers thought we would.
Reply
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