MAAARY. I love Mary with all my heart, even more so by this point in the series, and yes, I LOVE LOVE LOVE her with Lavinia. I love that the show made Lavinia sympathetic and interesting and made the Mary/Matthew/Lavinia triangle something other than "women compete for the man" (which, UGH).
I confess, I do still ship Mary/Matthew pretty hard, but mostly because I think, deep down, it's what Mary wants, and I want what she wants.
I do not hate Bates like you do, but I do get awfully tired of him and Anna and the ongoing AAANGST. As I told someone else, these are not characters with the complexity necessary to support this much narrative attention! Bleah.
I love that the show made Lavinia sympathetic and interesting and made the Mary/Matthew/Lavinia triangle something other than "women compete for the man"
EXACTLY. And I don't think Mary's ever had someone she could relate to before; I think some friendship with Lavinia is possibly the best thing she has going right now.
I do still ship Mary/Matthew pretty hard, but mostly because I think, deep down, it's what Mary wants, and I want what she wants.
I think so too, but I think at this point she wants it because she thinks she should want it, and because she's afraid of the unknown Richard represents. But I think she could want Richard, too, and at least where she is now it'd be better for her.
I do not hate Bates like you do, but I do get awfully tired of him and Anna and the ongoing AAANGST. As I told someone else, these are not characters with the complexity necessary to support this much narrative attention! Bleah.Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely reacting to the manipulation. They're the GOOD ONES, so you CARE ABOUT THEM THE MOST,
( ... )
And I don't think Mary's ever had someone she could relate to before; I think some friendship with Lavinia is possibly the best thing she has going right now.
*nod*
also I don't morally glorify that gatekeeper mentality, even if I understand why they do it.
Could you expand on that? "Gatekeeper mentality"? I don't think I'm following.
What I mean by that is the way they're people who are screwed on one level or another by the way their society is structured, but they keep a place in it by enforcing those social norms in one way or another. Bates being a vocal supporter of the class system, for example. It does make sense, but it's not the same as *good.*
Damn, though, this show delivers on shippiness, possibly more than is good for it. Anna/Bates, ugh.
Hahaha, WORD. I am so over Anna/Bates. I mean, not that I ever really shipped them, but at least I didn't want to slap them? Mostly, I just want Anna to have SOME kind of storyline that doesn't involve her love life.
Still on board the good ship Mary/Matthew, though. But Mary/Lavinia is totally my OTP.
MARY YOU ARE MY FAAAAAAAAAVORITE.
MARY IS THE ACTUAL BEST. (Also, she is so going to be Maggie Smith when she grows up.)
apparently the creator in this case is a reactionary who thinks he's showing a world better than our own, because - and I am not making this up - he thinks the monarchy stands for fairness.
I feel like Anna has gone from being this person who was really defined by her insight and compassion into being your run-of-the-mill Hopelessly Devoted To You Annabot, so Bates can be a massive jerk while never getting called out on it. I love watching unhealthy relationships, I just don't like being told they're good ones.
MARY/LAVINIA I CAN COMPLETELY GET BEHIND THOUGH. They should totally shack up together.
-THOMAS FOR THE CONSTANT WIN!!!!!! -Ugh Bates gross dnw with his pointlessness. -VIOLET <3333333333333 -Ethel = does not stay in any way cool, as characters tend not to sometimes. -Richard = I started off being a die hard Richard/Mary shipper, and loovveeddddd Richard so hard for precisely the reasons you outlined. I was never one of the mass Mary/Matthew shippers, and their relationship at the beginning gave me hope, until his character gets thrown under the bus for the sake of the insanely popular Matthew/Mary. Basically, the entirety of Britain ships them. Julian Fellowes does not want to face a lynch mob. -Julian Fellowes doesn't think he's 'showing a world better than our own', but one that holds a certain defined state of nostalgia for a lot of British people, and one that although yes was all WAR OMG WAR and class struggles and women's suffrage and all that fast and hard change, was one that was much more clear cut than the troubled times we live in now
( ... )
I AM SO BEHIND! But it's technically airing in the US now and PBS is doing the right thing and releasing the episodes on ad-sponsored free streaming after they air, rather than just pretending the internet doesn't exist and then bitching and whining when they turn out to be wrong. I'm really pissed and frightened by the whole SOPA thing, even though it's gone for now, so I like to support when programs are smart about new media.
THOMAS! VIOLET! O'BRIEN! They're all character types who never get to be this three-dimensional, so I am really loving them.
Yeah, I am afraid Richard has "sacrificed for the OTP" stamped all over him, when he is excellent right now, for her and in general! Process of elimination shipping: NEVER GOOD STORYTELLING.
He's definitely a die hard monarchist though, which tbf a lot of people are. When you look at how fucked up and corrupt even supposedly democratic 'first world' governments are, I imagine there is great appeal in looking at the Queen, the Princes, and Kate, and feeling at least THERE is some sense
( ... )
ooooh, yeah, that's interesting. I feel like...usually the Ice Queen's iciness is about being hyper-competent at clamping everything down? and then the narrative is all about Teaching Her A Lesson about dethawing. So she's all about the iciness in and of itself. I don't like that either. I think Lady Mary is different for me because we're always seeing that's what she's doing, and she's not always very good at it. I think we get the right amount of her perspective that she at least is more complex than she might otherwise be, if that makes sense.
Edith is making me so happy!
I also thought that his behavior kind of made sense? in a sexually repressive, deeply homophobic society, who wouldn't be pissed off about everything? add that to the fact that he's been relegated to the particular station of "servant" in a society that hinges itself upon him never moving out of that station and..yeah. I'd be a scathing ragemonster as well.Seriously, what the fuck else is he supposed to do? Go self-flagellate to death in a corner somewhere?
( ... )
Seriously, what the fuck else is he supposed to do? Go self-flagellate to death in a corner somewhere? Cora and Isabelle aren't bad people for wanting to run the Abbey, neither is Thomas.I think this is one of the most well-articulated points I've seen made about Thomas. everyone that I've spoken with who dislikes him accuses him of being devious, evil, or conniving--but he's certainly no more power-hungry than Cora or Isabelle. I often wonder if people would use the words "devious" and "conniving" to describe Cora and Isabelle in their competition with each other, or if they only use it to describe Thomas because he's perceived as competing for power through the use of "dishonorable" means (the "honorable" means, of course, being a great show of brute strength and raw aggression--i.e. the "more masculine", and therefore "more appropriate for a man", tactics
( ... )
the "honorable" means, of course, being a great show of brute strength and raw aggression--i.e. the "more masculine", and therefore "more appropriate for a man", tactics
THIS. THANK YOU. It's moralization of physical violence - and the corresponding dismissal of any hurt caused by something that's not direct physical aggression. Kudos on articulating MY PROBLEM WITH PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING EVER. #exaggerations that aren't. I think that's something that comes into play around any depiction of a conflict that's not entirely between alpha male pricks, but it seems particularly stark with DA, for some reason.
I wonder if people dislike him so much because they read him as being selfish (or overreaching his "station")Cora and Isabelle are never attacked for fighting over the Abbey, but of course, they already have some right to fight over it because, whereas Thomas doesn't. Completely. At least, I think that's certainly why the narrative seems to think we will dislike him. And yeah, I really do love that Cora's and Isabelle's conflict isn
( ... )
Hee - for once I'm watching a show at the same time as you! And I like your thoughts, especially re: Mary, Violet and Mary + Livinia / Mary + Robert. And I agree that Mr. Bates is The Most Annoying. Seriously? What kind of self-regard does it take to be such a martyr? But he and Anna are kind of perfect for each other because they are both just too good, ya know?
Now, help me like Thomas. I want to like him, I really do. Usually his character is my favorite male in any given show (Spike, Gaius Baltar etc.) But Thomas is just so dour and mean. I want him to show even a glint of humor or joie de vivre or something instead of just glowering at everyone and plotting in corners. I understand that his life is kind of Thomas v. world, and I get the anger, but for a 'villain' I want to watch, I need more. But Thomas is what we've got so, again I say: help me like him, please
( ... )
hee! I thought so last season! Now I kind of feel like...Anna really is too good; Bates seems more like a masochist getting his emotional rocks off with the whole martyr act. I'm glad he's protecting Mary, I just think what we're getting of his motives isn't particularly flattering.
Now, help me like Thomas. I want to like him, I really do. Usually his character is my favorite male in any given show (Spike, Gaius Baltar etc.) But Thomas is just so dour and mean. I want him to show even a glint of humor or joie de vivre or something instead of just glowering at everyone and plotting in corners. I understand that his life is kind of Thomas v. world, and I get the anger, but for a 'villain' I want to watch, I need more. But Thomas is what we've got so, again I say: help me like him, please. :)
I think Thomas is awesome because he really is ambitious. Spike and Baltar both have exceptional abilities and so they can afford to be a lot more self-centered, with Baltar's self-preservation and Spike's hedonism being ends in and of themselves
( ... )
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I confess, I do still ship Mary/Matthew pretty hard, but mostly because I think, deep down, it's what Mary wants, and I want what she wants.
I do not hate Bates like you do, but I do get awfully tired of him and Anna and the ongoing AAANGST. As I told someone else, these are not characters with the complexity necessary to support this much narrative attention! Bleah.
MAGGIE SMITH. NO VERBS OR MODIFIERS NECESSARY.
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EXACTLY. And I don't think Mary's ever had someone she could relate to before; I think some friendship with Lavinia is possibly the best thing she has going right now.
I do still ship Mary/Matthew pretty hard, but mostly because I think, deep down, it's what Mary wants, and I want what she wants.
I think so too, but I think at this point she wants it because she thinks she should want it, and because she's afraid of the unknown Richard represents. But I think she could want Richard, too, and at least where she is now it'd be better for her.
I do not hate Bates like you do, but I do get awfully tired of him and Anna and the ongoing AAANGST. As I told someone else, these are not characters with the complexity necessary to support this much narrative attention! Bleah.Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely reacting to the manipulation. They're the GOOD ONES, so you CARE ABOUT THEM THE MOST, ( ... )
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*nod*
also I don't morally glorify that gatekeeper mentality, even if I understand why they do it.
Could you expand on that? "Gatekeeper mentality"? I don't think I'm following.
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Hahaha, WORD. I am so over Anna/Bates. I mean, not that I ever really shipped them, but at least I didn't want to slap them? Mostly, I just want Anna to have SOME kind of storyline that doesn't involve her love life.
Still on board the good ship Mary/Matthew, though. But Mary/Lavinia is totally my OTP.
MARY YOU ARE MY FAAAAAAAAAVORITE.
MARY IS THE ACTUAL BEST. (Also, she is so going to be Maggie Smith when she grows up.)
apparently the creator in this case is a reactionary who thinks he's showing a world better than our own, because - and I am not making this up - he thinks the monarchy stands for fairness.
lol wut.
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MARY/LAVINIA I CAN COMPLETELY GET BEHIND THOUGH. They should totally shack up together.
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-THOMAS FOR THE CONSTANT WIN!!!!!!
-Ugh Bates gross dnw with his pointlessness.
-VIOLET <3333333333333
-Ethel = does not stay in any way cool, as characters tend not to sometimes.
-Richard = I started off being a die hard Richard/Mary shipper, and loovveeddddd Richard so hard for precisely the reasons you outlined. I was never one of the mass Mary/Matthew shippers, and their relationship at the beginning gave me hope, until his character gets thrown under the bus for the sake of the insanely popular Matthew/Mary. Basically, the entirety of Britain ships them. Julian Fellowes does not want to face a lynch mob.
-Julian Fellowes doesn't think he's 'showing a world better than our own', but one that holds a certain defined state of nostalgia for a lot of British people, and one that although yes was all WAR OMG WAR and class struggles and women's suffrage and all that fast and hard change, was one that was much more clear cut than the troubled times we live in now ( ... )
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THOMAS! VIOLET! O'BRIEN! They're all character types who never get to be this three-dimensional, so I am really loving them.
Yeah, I am afraid Richard has "sacrificed for the OTP" stamped all over him, when he is excellent right now, for her and in general! Process of elimination shipping: NEVER GOOD STORYTELLING.
He's definitely a die hard monarchist though, which tbf a lot of people are. When you look at how fucked up and corrupt even supposedly democratic 'first world' governments are, I imagine there is great appeal in looking at the Queen, the Princes, and Kate, and feeling at least THERE is some sense ( ... )
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Edith is making me so happy!
I also thought that his behavior kind of made sense? in a sexually repressive, deeply homophobic society, who wouldn't be pissed off about everything? add that to the fact that he's been relegated to the particular station of "servant" in a society that hinges itself upon him never moving out of that station and..yeah. I'd be a scathing ragemonster as well.Seriously, what the fuck else is he supposed to do? Go self-flagellate to death in a corner somewhere? ( ... )
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THIS. THANK YOU. It's moralization of physical violence - and the corresponding dismissal of any hurt caused by something that's not direct physical aggression. Kudos on articulating MY PROBLEM WITH PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING EVER. #exaggerations that aren't. I think that's something that comes into play around any depiction of a conflict that's not entirely between alpha male pricks, but it seems particularly stark with DA, for some reason.
I wonder if people dislike him so much because they read him as being selfish (or overreaching his "station")Cora and Isabelle are never attacked for fighting over the Abbey, but of course, they already have some right to fight over it because, whereas Thomas doesn't. Completely. At least, I think that's certainly why the narrative seems to think we will dislike him. And yeah, I really do love that Cora's and Isabelle's conflict isn ( ... )
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Now, help me like Thomas. I want to like him, I really do. Usually his character is my favorite male in any given show (Spike, Gaius Baltar etc.) But Thomas is just so dour and mean. I want him to show even a glint of humor or joie de vivre or something instead of just glowering at everyone and plotting in corners. I understand that his life is kind of Thomas v. world, and I get the anger, but for a 'villain' I want to watch, I need more. But Thomas is what we've got so, again I say: help me like him, please ( ... )
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Now, help me like Thomas. I want to like him, I really do. Usually his character is my favorite male in any given show (Spike, Gaius Baltar etc.) But Thomas is just so dour and mean. I want him to show even a glint of humor or joie de vivre or something instead of just glowering at everyone and plotting in corners. I understand that his life is kind of Thomas v. world, and I get the anger, but for a 'villain' I want to watch, I need more. But Thomas is what we've got so, again I say: help me like him, please. :)
I think Thomas is awesome because he really is ambitious. Spike and Baltar both have exceptional abilities and so they can afford to be a lot more self-centered, with Baltar's self-preservation and Spike's hedonism being ends in and of themselves ( ... )
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