ooooh, yeah, that's interesting. I feel like...usually the Ice Queen's iciness is about being hyper-competent at clamping everything down? and then the narrative is all about Teaching Her A Lesson about dethawing. So she's all about the iciness in and of itself. I don't like that either. I think Lady Mary is different for me because we're always seeing that's what she's doing, and she's not always very good at it. I think we get the right amount of her perspective that she at least is more complex than she might otherwise be, if that makes sense.
Edith is making me so happy!
I also thought that his behavior kind of made sense? in a sexually repressive, deeply homophobic society, who wouldn't be pissed off about everything? add that to the fact that he's been relegated to the particular station of "servant" in a society that hinges itself upon him never moving out of that station and..yeah. I'd be a scathing ragemonster as well.
Seriously, what the fuck else is he supposed to do? Go self-flagellate to death in a corner somewhere? Cora and Isabelle aren't bad people for wanting to run the Abbey, neither is Thomas. Especially since the first time we see him get an opportunity to use his outsider perspective for good, he does. Which doesn't justify everything he does up until that point, but I do think it shows how his story is about lack of opportunity, emotional or economic.
Seriously, what the fuck else is he supposed to do? Go self-flagellate to death in a corner somewhere? Cora and Isabelle aren't bad people for wanting to run the Abbey, neither is Thomas.
I think this is one of the most well-articulated points I've seen made about Thomas. everyone that I've spoken with who dislikes him accuses him of being devious, evil, or conniving--but he's certainly no more power-hungry than Cora or Isabelle. I often wonder if people would use the words "devious" and "conniving" to describe Cora and Isabelle in their competition with each other, or if they only use it to describe Thomas because he's perceived as competing for power through the use of "dishonorable" means (the "honorable" means, of course, being a great show of brute strength and raw aggression--i.e. the "more masculine", and therefore "more appropriate for a man", tactics).
alternatively, I wonder if people dislike him so much because they read him as being selfish (or overreaching his "station"). Cora and Isabelle are never attacked for fighting over the Abbey, but of course, they already have some right to fight over it because, whereas Thomas doesn't.
the "honorable" means, of course, being a great show of brute strength and raw aggression--i.e. the "more masculine", and therefore "more appropriate for a man", tactics
THIS. THANK YOU. It's moralization of physical violence - and the corresponding dismissal of any hurt caused by something that's not direct physical aggression. Kudos on articulating MY PROBLEM WITH PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING EVER. #exaggerations that aren't. I think that's something that comes into play around any depiction of a conflict that's not entirely between alpha male pricks, but it seems particularly stark with DA, for some reason.
I wonder if people dislike him so much because they read him as being selfish (or overreaching his "station")Cora and Isabelle are never attacked for fighting over the Abbey, but of course, they already have some right to fight over it because, whereas Thomas doesn't.
Completely. At least, I think that's certainly why the narrative seems to think we will dislike him. And yeah, I really do love that Cora's and Isabelle's conflict isn't being diminished or played for laughs as some CATFIGHT! but yeah, the respect their power struggle gets is very much dependent on their class status.
WOW I'M GLAD YOU COULD MAKE SENSE OF WHAT I WAS SAYING THROUGH ALL THE TYPOS & GRAMMATICAL INCOHERENCIES. jesus. I don't know what happened while I was typing those thoughts--apparently I got all sidetracked by my own theorizing.
It's moralization of physical violence - and the corresponding dismissal of any hurt caused by something that's not direct physical aggression.
BUT YEAH THAT. I just wonder if people would like Thomas more if he:
1. got into fistfights all the time (or...I dunno. something like that).
or
2. sat around hating himself for being gay/queer/whatever you want to call it.
I'm actually certain people would like him more if he were the latter. then it would be the case of POOR OPPRESSED GAY GUY. LET ME WOOBIFY YOU.
...not like I have opinions about that or anything.
I really do love that Cora's and Isabelle's conflict isn't being diminished or played for laughs as some CATFIGHT!
huh, this never occurred to me. but now that you point it out, I'm also glad they aren't being portrayed that way.
Edith is making me so happy!
I also thought that his behavior kind of made sense? in a sexually repressive, deeply homophobic society, who wouldn't be pissed off about everything? add that to the fact that he's been relegated to the particular station of "servant" in a society that hinges itself upon him never moving out of that station and..yeah. I'd be a scathing ragemonster as well.
Seriously, what the fuck else is he supposed to do? Go self-flagellate to death in a corner somewhere? Cora and Isabelle aren't bad people for wanting to run the Abbey, neither is Thomas. Especially since the first time we see him get an opportunity to use his outsider perspective for good, he does. Which doesn't justify everything he does up until that point, but I do think it shows how his story is about lack of opportunity, emotional or economic.
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I think this is one of the most well-articulated points I've seen made about Thomas. everyone that I've spoken with who dislikes him accuses him of being devious, evil, or conniving--but he's certainly no more power-hungry than Cora or Isabelle. I often wonder if people would use the words "devious" and "conniving" to describe Cora and Isabelle in their competition with each other, or if they only use it to describe Thomas because he's perceived as competing for power through the use of "dishonorable" means (the "honorable" means, of course, being a great show of brute strength and raw aggression--i.e. the "more masculine", and therefore "more appropriate for a man", tactics).
alternatively, I wonder if people dislike him so much because they read him as being selfish (or overreaching his "station"). Cora and Isabelle are never attacked for fighting over the Abbey, but of course, they already have some right to fight over it because, whereas Thomas doesn't.
Reply
THIS. THANK YOU. It's moralization of physical violence - and the corresponding dismissal of any hurt caused by something that's not direct physical aggression. Kudos on articulating MY PROBLEM WITH PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING EVER. #exaggerations that aren't. I think that's something that comes into play around any depiction of a conflict that's not entirely between alpha male pricks, but it seems particularly stark with DA, for some reason.
I wonder if people dislike him so much because they read him as being selfish (or overreaching his "station")Cora and Isabelle are never attacked for fighting over the Abbey, but of course, they already have some right to fight over it because, whereas Thomas doesn't.
Completely. At least, I think that's certainly why the narrative seems to think we will dislike him. And yeah, I really do love that Cora's and Isabelle's conflict isn't being diminished or played for laughs as some CATFIGHT! but yeah, the respect their power struggle gets is very much dependent on their class status.
Reply
It's moralization of physical violence - and the corresponding dismissal of any hurt caused by something that's not direct physical aggression.
BUT YEAH THAT. I just wonder if people would like Thomas more if he:
1. got into fistfights all the time (or...I dunno. something like that).
or
2. sat around hating himself for being gay/queer/whatever you want to call it.
I'm actually certain people would like him more if he were the latter. then it would be the case of POOR OPPRESSED GAY GUY. LET ME WOOBIFY YOU.
...not like I have opinions about that or anything.
I really do love that Cora's and Isabelle's conflict isn't being diminished or played for laughs as some CATFIGHT!
huh, this never occurred to me. but now that you point it out, I'm also glad they aren't being portrayed that way.
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