It's not hard to see or write how they could utilize their skills effectively in battle, and I don't peg a single one of them as categorically 'the weakest".This this this this this
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That's definitely another place where interpretation comes in. I started playing FF before FFX. Water was one of the best spells you could have for a while, and did a lot for your stats. But once you could start getting Blizzaga? It was also one of the first things that got purged to make room for the good stuff. To me, pure ice will always trump water. Seeing it the other way is okay, too. In the end it really comes down to what sort of magic superiority system each person works by. :) I tend to use the one from FFVIII, since it covers a good range of the more esoteric spell types
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You do? Oh well, I'm only up to the 5th floor of Castle Oblivion :b.
I see them as equal, partly because they both have some advantages and disadvantages. For example, water is fluid while ice is solid. Once the ice is there it's there, but the water can move. As shown with the stupid floaty exploding GREAT BALLS OF WATER. I hated those things. As well, Demyx has his clones that can be used to distract his opponent without seeming to require much concentration. Still, Vexen's shield is probably a sign that he's a better overall fighter.
Mm, I'm still calling Vexen more often than not. Ice may be crystalline and solid, but... Oh, you'll see why I kept getting ass-raped by it. :P Honestly, I can see it as a battle where Vex would force close-quarter fighting. That solid ice can play to his advantage there, and once he's close range, oh god no. Demyx seems better as a ranged fighter, while Vexen can go either way, like Xaldin and Xemnas can. Plus, Demyx is more prone to panic. He'd do better if he were a bit more seasoned, I think.
(Bear in mind, though, that Vex is my primary for Org RP, so I think way too much about tactics to use against different Org members with him, lol, since unlike most fan interpretations I've seen, mine has an analytical battle brain and can hold his own.)
I definitely agree that Demyx would be better if he was more seasoned, but I'm not sure about the close vs. long distance. I personally only played Easy, but Sister played Difficult and there's one attack, Show Stealer, Demyx does there that really hurts if you hit him without the reaction commend.
Sometimes I wonder why there isn't more Demyx/Luxord. Demyx can impose time limits, remember?
Hmm, I guess it depends on whether it's a close-quarter or ranged thing. I played through the game once on normal, then threw down my controller and said 'fuck this shit' because it was just a depressing disappointment, so there may be stuff I didn't see. I guess my point is mostly that all the characters balance each other out more or less, but there are some who have extra advantages that can give them an edge even in otherwise matched situations. Those advantages can range from different skill sets to tactical capabilities. Elements play a large part, but a lot of it is also how you play the field. :) Someone impulsive might be able to get the jump on someone who takes in the situation. Someone who takes in the situation might then learn to keep a distance while they devise the most appropriate approach that will let them counter impulsive actions, resulting in a slower battle but one more favourable to them, especially if they can deliver precise attacks that someone who's not looking ahead doesn't see coming
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Forgot to add, with VIII, thunder magic is most effective against machines, so I tend to put mechanical/data elementals opposite it. I can see where water would also work, if you wanted to give it a completely separate elemental class, though. :)
Ah, hmm. I lost interest with IX, really, so I'm not familiar with the later games. There weren't too many enemies I can recall in VIII that were vulnerable to thunder, that weren't mechanical. I summoned Quezacotl a lot on the Fastitocalon-F's that infested Balamb beach, but that was just to build compatibility. Of course, the system changes slightly with each game and none of it jives 100%. So, I'm cool with people viewing it different ways. I mean, it's Disney and Squeenix knocking boots with each other. The offspring probably isn't going to make all that much sense.
Personally I think you're overpowering Vexen in your description. So being a little hypocritical there.
I'm not saying he's weak. I'm just saying that it's not true that "he could've turned him into a popsicle if he'd wanted to attack him first!!11". You're saying that anybody could beat him if they caught him by surprise, but he'd always have the advantage had it been a fair fight. I seriously doubt this, because Vexen isn't any more 'all powerful' than any of the other members.
Vexen's a scientist, and he spends more time on his experiments than any other member, though Zexion follows as a close second. That means, he probably spends less time perfecting attacks, training, or getting a better grasp of attacking with his element or his weapon. This doesn't make him weak, but it sure doesn't mean that Vexen would have time to learn to be the strongest or most effective in combat.
"I mean, Vexen might not enjoy being wet, but it probably wouldn't hurt him."Have you ever seen one of those hoses that firefighters use? If you're hit
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I guess it might come across that way. But to be fair, we're talking about one character in one very specific situation. I talk about other characters in different situations in a similar manner. So no, it's not particularly hypocritical to suggest that in a given situation, one character might have a significant advantage over another.
Allow me to expand upon the points that I have already made; there will be quite a bit of expansion (at least two comments' worth). Feel free to read it and reconsider or not, it's up to you. However, I think if you choose to read it you'll find that I also put a great deal of thought into where characters would be at a disadvantage. I use Vexen as my normal example simply because I roleplay him a lot, and thus have put the most thought into him. I would be more than happy to approach another character in a similar fashion, if you wish me to.
I'm also definitely not saying that no one could beat Vexen in a fair fight. I did not use those words at any point. What I'm saying is that in this situation
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You may not have used the words that Vexen would win in a fair fight, but much of your argument implies that certain characters would only win if they had the advantage of striking first. For example:
"Xigbar may well be able to shoot Vexen in the back from other side of the room while they're facing each other, but all the bullets in the world won't help him if it's too cold for his guns to fire, or for him to keep his hands steady to aim well."
"Conversely, if Vexen had gotten the jump on Axel first? Pyro would be nothing more than a pointy ice sculpture, because fire has an EQUAL weakness against ice."I never insisted that you said any of those points word for word, but the points that you left out and the examples that you gave give the impression that you overpower him very often, frequently predicting that he would win one fight or another. Not to mention, that you don't tend to stick to the attacks or tactics that he uses within the game, but rather go on the element itself, what you know about it, and assume that he would
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Wow, way to jump to conclusions! If I overpower Vexen, then goddamn, I must overpower every character in the game, considering I give them similar treatment and consideration. Note to self, start disregarding logic and under-powering everyone from now on so that no one ever has an advantage, ever.
Both of the instances you just cited do have a certain basis for possibility. There are temperatures below which a bullet will not fire (though of course, this necessitates that Xigbar's bullets use gunpowder, which I've seen thrown up for debate before -- here we go with that personal interpretation thing again), and ice is polar to fire, which means that Vexen has the same surprise advantage over Axel that Axel has over him. That one very, very definitely goes both ways. In direct confrontation? I don't think either of them would particularly enjoy how that went, considering every attack that lands is going to do extra damage. That's just a sucky situation all around -- and probably a very good reason why Axel would backstab rather than
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You've mentioned this already, and my comment was focused on your narration on Vexen's powers and strengths. I didn't ask for you to go into the strengths and powers of another character, because I'm honestly not all that interested, but I did hear you say that you view all characters equally and that was somewhat apparent in your follow up argument several times over. So sarcasm is really unnecessary, but if you want to follow through on that note-to-self, by all means
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I see them as equal, partly because they both have some advantages and disadvantages. For example, water is fluid while ice is solid. Once the ice is there it's there, but the water can move. As shown with the stupid floaty exploding GREAT BALLS OF WATER. I hated those things. As well, Demyx has his clones that can be used to distract his opponent without seeming to require much concentration. Still, Vexen's shield is probably a sign that he's a better overall fighter.
I call it a draw.
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(Bear in mind, though, that Vex is my primary for Org RP, so I think way too much about tactics to use against different Org members with him, lol, since unlike most fan interpretations I've seen, mine has an analytical battle brain and can hold his own.)
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Sometimes I wonder why there isn't more Demyx/Luxord. Demyx can impose time limits, remember?
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I'm not saying he's weak. I'm just saying that it's not true that "he could've turned him into a popsicle if he'd wanted to attack him first!!11". You're saying that anybody could beat him if they caught him by surprise, but he'd always have the advantage had it been a fair fight. I seriously doubt this, because Vexen isn't any more 'all powerful' than any of the other members.
Vexen's a scientist, and he spends more time on his experiments than any other member, though Zexion follows as a close second. That means, he probably spends less time perfecting attacks, training, or getting a better grasp of attacking with his element or his weapon. This doesn't make him weak, but it sure doesn't mean that Vexen would have time to learn to be the strongest or most effective in combat.
"I mean, Vexen might not enjoy being wet, but it probably wouldn't hurt him."Have you ever seen one of those hoses that firefighters use? If you're hit ( ... )
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Allow me to expand upon the points that I have already made; there will be quite a bit of expansion (at least two comments' worth). Feel free to read it and reconsider or not, it's up to you. However, I think if you choose to read it you'll find that I also put a great deal of thought into where characters would be at a disadvantage. I use Vexen as my normal example simply because I roleplay him a lot, and thus have put the most thought into him. I would be more than happy to approach another character in a similar fashion, if you wish me to.
I'm also definitely not saying that no one could beat Vexen in a fair fight. I did not use those words at any point. What I'm saying is that in this situation ( ... )
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"Xigbar may well be able to shoot Vexen in the back from other side of the room while they're facing each other, but all the bullets in the world won't help him if it's too cold for his guns to fire, or for him to keep his hands steady to aim well."
"Conversely, if Vexen had gotten the jump on Axel first? Pyro would be nothing more than a pointy ice sculpture, because fire has an EQUAL weakness against ice."I never insisted that you said any of those points word for word, but the points that you left out and the examples that you gave give the impression that you overpower him very often, frequently predicting that he would win one fight or another. Not to mention, that you don't tend to stick to the attacks or tactics that he uses within the game, but rather go on the element itself, what you know about it, and assume that he would ( ... )
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Both of the instances you just cited do have a certain basis for possibility. There are temperatures below which a bullet will not fire (though of course, this necessitates that Xigbar's bullets use gunpowder, which I've seen thrown up for debate before -- here we go with that personal interpretation thing again), and ice is polar to fire, which means that Vexen has the same surprise advantage over Axel that Axel has over him. That one very, very definitely goes both ways. In direct confrontation? I don't think either of them would particularly enjoy how that went, considering every attack that lands is going to do extra damage. That's just a sucky situation all around -- and probably a very good reason why Axel would backstab rather than ( ... )
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