It's not hard to see or write how they could utilize their skills effectively in battle, and I don't peg a single one of them as categorically 'the weakest".
This this this this this.
I'm so sick of people going 'Vexen has ice and a shield and was the first to die, so he's obviously a pussy.' I kinda want to ask if they've ever played a game with an elemental system before. Ice doesn't do well against fire. Conversely, if Vexen had gotten the jump on Axel first? Pyro would be nothing more than a pointy ice sculpture, because fire has an EQUAL weakness against ice. It's not about Axel being stronger and Vexen being weaker, it's about who made the first move given their elemental polarity.
People seem to forget that each of the Organization has their own strengths, and each of them knows how to use those strengths to their advantage. I mean, Vexen is a scientist. I'm pretty damn sure he knows that water expands when frozen, and that the average body is composed mainly of, hmm, water. Why should he waste energy engaging in full-on fighting when he can just freeze every drop of water in your body and thus rupture every single cell that you have? OHK, TPW. However, it might be a far less effective move against someone like Demyx, who, while weaker than Vexen, still has control over the element that Vexen would be manipulating and is technically bound to a subsection of the same elemental family (IIRC water magic in KH, as in FF games, falls under the umbrella of ice magic).
In the end, most members of the Organization (except for Xemnas) balance each other out in at least one way -- and I laugh at anyone who thinks that they're above using dick moves to come out on top.
Hrm, my actual personal take on the way their elements work is that they don't have complete manipulative control over them. They have certain attacks and abilities, and may be able to do some smaller stuff in addition -like warming a cup of coffee- and side effects (Larxene and static)but for the most part they can't do absolutely everything, which I like only because it waves away a couple of the plot-hole-issues with the battles in KH (You start getting too creative with elemental powers and you can do anything. A limit on those abilities may explain why Axel, for example, doesn't just set everyone on fire in his fights).
So, for example, I tend to think that Vexen's power works by being able to summon or create ice, not freeze things. Hence why he encases his enemies in ice as opposed to freezing them.
I've wondered what a fight between Vexen and Demyx would be like. I assume both would find it very uncomfortable -Vexen no likey being wet and Demyx no likey being cold, and calling it a draw.
HEY YOU DISTRACTED ME WITH FUN CONVO. D:< -My real beef in this rant, however, isn't so much with org members being struck as weak, which has been pretty well discussed in this comm, as it is with some being blessed with Sue-like power and strength just because the author likes them or they are playing the seme in a pairing-centered yaoi fic.
You know what else pisses me off in general? Seme/dom/top = bigger. IT DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK THAT WAY.
Seriously, I practically mainline Xigbar/Vexen, and while Vex is in no way submissive or an uke or what have you, he does seem to be on the bottom more often than not (because he LIKES it, not because he's somehow deficient in the masculinity department). And Xigbar comes up to, like, Vexen's nose.
I also 'ship Sally and Zechs from Gundam Wing (het, but the point holds), and short little Sally definitely wears the pants.
FUCK I JUST HATE THE WHOLE SEME/UKE THING PERIOD. DX Sure it's got traceable roots, but it makes for HIGHLY predictable, unsatisfactory reading.
Man, I know how you feel! Obviously I see this happening a lot with Zexion along with some character rape on occasion, but that's for another rant, and I just have to laugh maniacally. From all his actions in the game, from him telling off Vexen to ordering Lexaeus around to making Riku his bitch, Zexion strikes me as the type who wouldn't be able to stand being on bottom.
Either get on your knees, bitch, or die. XD
Of course, some of my other muses find this an attractive trait. Right, Tony Stark? Doo de doot,just playing with my logical crack ships, don't mind me...
Y'know, I've always seen Zexion as very much an in control kind of guy, too. I don't really ship him with anyone, since he looks like a kid (BbS screenshots of Ienzo DID NOT HELP) and honestly, I enjoy him as an overall mastermind more than a sexual manipulator. But he's definitely the type who would take charge in that kind of situation and goddamn it he is not emo. Even if he's opted to be on the bottom, he's the kind of guy who would dom from down there. Not unlike Xemnas, actually; I can see Xem enjoying letting someone fuck him, because even in that situation, he is in absolute control of everything and that's what really gets him going. It's not the sex, it's the power trip.
I could go on for hours with the character rape that crops up in MarVex, where people completely twist Vexen's character for the sake of making him a victim, or BOTH their characters for the sake of pink cotton candy true love fluff-sex. And people wonder why I hate the pairing now.
And pssh, that can totally be an attractive trait. >3 Again, Zechs totally loves it when Sally bosses him around. And even my Vexen will let Xigbar do it on occasion, though he has to be in just the right mood for it and goddamn, if he is not then he will let you know very, very quickly.
I always thought he looked pretty mature in Re: CoM, and then BBS completely blindsided me. I mean, I knew he would be young, but whoa, not THAT young. Either way, I agree with him being an overall manipulator who enjoys getting his way and having people under his thumb.
Ooooh, interesting thought on Xemnas.
I think anyone could go on forever about 411 character rape. XD
Yeah, Zexion in CoM looks... obviously younger than the rest, but you could believe that he's in his early twenties (and he's going on 80 in terms of cynicism and entitlement). Ienzo was just a shock, to say the least. I expected the Apprentices to look younger, but I figured that Ienzo would have grown out of needing a babysitter! Poor Even. I like to imagine him as getting stuck on 'keep Ienzo from getting stepped on' duty, being exasperated about having to get a step-stool so that Ienzo can see onto the lab benches, and on his bad days asking in a rather waspish tone whether 'will that be all, or would you like juice and a cookie and a story before your naptime'.
Xemnas is the other Org character I play extensively (I do a bit of Zexion on the side, and I've tried my hand at Larxene), and I've always seen him as a control freak. I don't see how this could avoid extending to the bedroom. In the first place, Xemnas probably has balls of Adamantine. He wouldn't be the slave to sex and pleasure that some people portray him as. He might enjoy them, yes, but he's also damn well able to do without them for extended periods of time without whining about it. Second, I can see him using sex itself as a means of control. In the end, everything with Xemnas seems to boil down to two things: what's best for him, and how he can best keep others (and anyone else he happens across) under his control. I'm a XemSai fan, and I've never seen it as cuddles and fluffy bunnies and what have you. Saix is in it to get into Xemnas's good graces; he seems attracted to power, and in the Organization, power is concentrated at the top. Xemnas is likely in it because Saix poses a challenge with regards to his control, and he probably gets hard over being able to keep absolute control over someone as strong as Saix in a situation where people are traditionally vulnerable (take Zevran from Dragon Age Origins and his view that some of the best assassination work is done while on your back).
Sane people could, but oh god. Dumbest argument I've heard in favour of it (and in favour of XigDem, which horrifies me like nothing else in the fandom)? 'Vexen is old and weak and ugly, so he needs someone young and strong and pretty like Marluxia to balance him out. You just can't look at him unless you've got something pretty there as well!' And this chick actually thought that MADE SENSE.
Before BBS, I personally had Ienzo having lost his heart at somewhere around 18 years just barely 17 when it concerns my sister RPing her Marluxia muse who wants in his pants XD Just to fuck with her and as Nobodies are stuck in the age they lost their hearts at supposedly, that would leave him mentally 28. That's just how I played it anyway. Then BBS comes and I'm not sure what the hell to think...
Pffff, completely off topic, but you remind me of a fic I once wrote in the idea that the apprentices grew up in the castle kind of under Ansem's care. Even was one of the two people who found Ienzo, who was a runaway, and brought him back, so Ienzo's always thought of him as the other guy to go to when Aeleus is unavailable, or if he's closer. That was the point when Ienzo, never having seen snow, freaks out about it one morning and goes to pester him of all people. There was some bickering. XD
I think I've already mentioned this somewhere, but I don't play Xemnas partially because I'm scared shitless of him. I don't really have that much experience with him. |D Still, I get what you mean about him doing it for power and not being some pathetic slave to sex. My Zexion's actually a little bit similar, because he knows sex/pleasure is one of those ways you can control someone or get them to work with you- hell, it's half the reason he even partakes in the act, being Mister Spy. Also, like dear Zevran said, good for getting rid of others.
And WHHAAAAT. Sorry, gotta get out of the strike throughs for that little gem. Are you fuckin' kidding me? -facepalm- Man, I feel like I gotta do an entirely separate rant on that, but I'd be preaching to the choir right now, wouldn't I? Uuuuugh, fandumb, come on, you're killing me here.
Besides, Vexen is only unattactive in that mode where everyone is unattractive: he's acting like a douche half/most of the time and he holds back none of his 'emotions'/thoughts on a matter. Very few people are attractive when they're pissed off or being dicks, like Vexen is mostly seen doing. I mean, goddammit, lookit him! -points at icon- Besides, he could be goddamn Quasimodo, but when you have Derek Stephen Prince doing your voice in that kind of awesome... Sorry, nostalgia. XD Vexen's English voice makes me strangely happy.
Oh man, IKR? And Vexen is only the third tallest! I mean, Ienzo was a wee little thing, and he grew by the time we Zexion in CoM, but when I saw the scan of Ienzo and Even from BbS I freaked. Lexaeus, Xaldin, and Vexen are far and away the tallest members of the Organization, and makes sense that they'd be the largest of the Somebodies as well, but I wasn't prepared for mini!Ienzo.
It's weird, too, because they're all huge in different ways. Aeleus is a frickin' mountain, Dilan looks like an enormous carrot (big upper body, slim hips), and Even is just HELLA tall but nicely proportioned -- it's like they took a relatively normal, somewhat hip-py guy, and just made him way above normal scale.
Milk, it does an Apprentice good, I guess? I want whatever the hell they've been eating, I know that much. My 5'-4" ass could use it.
And then Braig's actually a reasonable height, and Isa and Lea are just a little on the tall side (or rather, Saix and Axel are, since Isa and Lea are kids). Incidentally, I suppose it shows what several years of fan speculation can achieve that those were my preferred names for those two before they became canon. Not to mention - hold on, do Braig, Dilan, and Isa have pointy ears, or is it just their Nobodies? I never figured out what was up with that.
Yeah, I've always figure Xigbar/Braig was about... oh, 5'-8"? 5'-9"? Not tiny, but not a giant, either. And Vexen/Even clocks in at about 6'-4" or 6'-5", judging from their height difference. I totally wrote Saix down in my mind as Isa, but I'm quite disenchanted with Axel and never really thought about him. Still don't, except with distaste. Actually, BbS in general leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm still debating whether to make myself suffer through it first-hand.
Braig, Isa, and Dilan... Crap, IDK. My hard drive failed catastrophically last week and I lost all of my BbS pictures and a huge amount of other stuff as well. I seem to remember Braig having them, at least, along with brown eyes. In the one crappy picture of Dilan I have online, his ears look pretty normal.
I might be misremembering Xaldin having them... But KH Wiki confirms Braig having pointy ears (or the pictures do), and says Isa doesn't. I think with Saix the pointy ears are just playing up the werewolf thing. It doesn't look like Dilan does, either.
Yeah, it really does come down to personal interpretation of things. I figure the Org can't do everything, but they do have a very high level of control -- you just don't see that in the game because if you did, there wouldn't BE a game, LOL. Kind of like how they conveniently forgot that Vexen is, y'know, smart and probably not oblivious to what's going on around him when they decided to have Axel off him. And then Xemnas and his crazy keep them more or less in line.
I tend to think of the capacity to freeze things, not being hurt by/being healed by cold, etc. as fitting into the whole ice thing. Again, it's a matter of personal interpretation. I think the important part is that it's portrayed realistically. I play my Vexen as having the greater level of capacity, but the other characters have similar capacities, and their weaknesses balance that power out. Xigbar may well be able to shoot Vexen in the back from other side of the room while they're facing each other, but all the bullets in the world won't help him if it's too cold for his guns to fire, or for him to keep his hands steady to aim well. (And Xemnas's crazy ass does a lot for keeping them all from just killing each other.) I've seen other playouts of the version you go with turn out equally well. And I've seen atrocities in both camps.
Honestly, I suspect Vexen would win, and not because I adore him and detest Demyx. Vexen's a primary ice elemental while Demyx is a secondary, if you go by the old school Squeenix system, and strong ice magic traditionally does more damage than water magic (Water is basically pointless to keep around if you have Blizzaga, for example). Plus, it lends itself better to tight control, projectiles, and so on, which plays well into Vexen's preference for keeping his distance. I mean, Vexen might not enjoy being wet, but it probably wouldn't hurt him -- he'd just be really cranky afterward, and would either have a hissy or not even lower himself to discussing the matter, depending on his mood. But extreme cold and enormous spires of ice can cause all sorts of problems. Though in all honesty, Vexen probably can't even be bothered to acknowledge the fact that Demyx exists, most of the time. They function on completely different levels, and Vex sort of lives in his own little world of science.
I do agree with the point of annoyance, though. Especially with Marluxia, because he's where I see it the most (I don't really do LexZex, simply because the anatomical strain involved makes my brain hurt and I kinda have this soft spot for XalLex, but I can see where the idea would play in there as well). He's strong, sure, but he's not a god, and while his elemental affinity is somewhat fringe, it's not invincible -- plants don't like fire OR ice, for example, or lightning for that matter. I hate when authors overpower a character, and then decide that other characters are so ~intimidated~ by said seme's might and power that they immediately fall all over them, don't fight back against physical/sexual aggression, etc. That's what pisses me off the most about the whole thing.
Seriously, the only time it makes sense to have an overpowered character is with Xemnas, because... Christ, look at him. He's everything you mentioned. Though then we get into the people who write him as some romantic sot, which makes me go D:
Water is basically pointless to keep around if you have Blizzaga, for example
I personally don't agree with this, mainly I think because I played FFX to start. In there, ice and water are equal. The elemental polarities go like this: Fire<>Ice Thunder<>Water If you use, say, Ice or Fire on a Water beast it would do half damage, Thunder would do 2x damage, and Water would heal it. (I think.) So I feel that Vexen vs. Demyx would have to be called off. They're technically the same element, so Demyx might make 5-foot tsunamis and exploding bubbles but Vexen would be able to freeze them. Demyx might possibly win in my mind, but only because Vexen spends so much of his time in the lab. I don't believe we ever fight him, so I don't know how strong he is.
This this this this this.
I'm so sick of people going 'Vexen has ice and a shield and was the first to die, so he's obviously a pussy.' I kinda want to ask if they've ever played a game with an elemental system before. Ice doesn't do well against fire. Conversely, if Vexen had gotten the jump on Axel first? Pyro would be nothing more than a pointy ice sculpture, because fire has an EQUAL weakness against ice. It's not about Axel being stronger and Vexen being weaker, it's about who made the first move given their elemental polarity.
People seem to forget that each of the Organization has their own strengths, and each of them knows how to use those strengths to their advantage. I mean, Vexen is a scientist. I'm pretty damn sure he knows that water expands when frozen, and that the average body is composed mainly of, hmm, water. Why should he waste energy engaging in full-on fighting when he can just freeze every drop of water in your body and thus rupture every single cell that you have? OHK, TPW. However, it might be a far less effective move against someone like Demyx, who, while weaker than Vexen, still has control over the element that Vexen would be manipulating and is technically bound to a subsection of the same elemental family (IIRC water magic in KH, as in FF games, falls under the umbrella of ice magic).
In the end, most members of the Organization (except for Xemnas) balance each other out in at least one way -- and I laugh at anyone who thinks that they're above using dick moves to come out on top.
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So, for example, I tend to think that Vexen's power works by being able to summon or create ice, not freeze things. Hence why he encases his enemies in ice as opposed to freezing them.
I've wondered what a fight between Vexen and Demyx would be like. I assume both would find it very uncomfortable -Vexen no likey being wet and Demyx no likey being cold, and calling it a draw.
HEY YOU DISTRACTED ME WITH FUN CONVO. D:<
-My real beef in this rant, however, isn't so much with org members being struck as weak, which has been pretty well discussed in this comm, as it is with some being blessed with Sue-like power and strength just because the author likes them or they are playing the seme in a pairing-centered yaoi fic.
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IIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
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Seriously, I practically mainline Xigbar/Vexen, and while Vex is in no way submissive or an uke or what have you, he does seem to be on the bottom more often than not (because he LIKES it, not because he's somehow deficient in the masculinity department). And Xigbar comes up to, like, Vexen's nose.
I also 'ship Sally and Zechs from Gundam Wing (het, but the point holds), and short little Sally definitely wears the pants.
FUCK I JUST HATE THE WHOLE SEME/UKE THING PERIOD. DX Sure it's got traceable roots, but it makes for HIGHLY predictable, unsatisfactory reading.
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Obviously I see this happening a lot with Zexion along with some character rape on occasion, but that's for another rant, and I just have to laugh maniacally. From all his actions in the game, from him telling off Vexen to ordering Lexaeus around to making Riku his bitch, Zexion strikes me as the type who wouldn't be able to stand being on bottom.
Either get on your knees, bitch, or die. XD
Of course, some of my other muses find this an attractive trait. Right, Tony Stark?
Doo de doot,just playing with my logical crack ships, don't mind me...
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I could go on for hours with the character rape that crops up in MarVex, where people completely twist Vexen's character for the sake of making him a victim, or BOTH their characters for the sake of pink cotton candy true love fluff-sex. And people wonder why I hate the pairing now.
And pssh, that can totally be an attractive trait. >3 Again, Zechs totally loves it when Sally bosses him around. And even my Vexen will let Xigbar do it on occasion, though he has to be in just the right mood for it and goddamn, if he is not then he will let you know very, very quickly.
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Ooooh, interesting thought on Xemnas.
I think anyone could go on forever about 411 character rape. XD
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Xemnas is the other Org character I play extensively (I do a bit of Zexion on the side, and I've tried my hand at Larxene), and I've always seen him as a control freak. I don't see how this could avoid extending to the bedroom. In the first place, Xemnas probably has balls of Adamantine. He wouldn't be the slave to sex and pleasure that some people portray him as. He might enjoy them, yes, but he's also damn well able to do without them for extended periods of time without whining about it. Second, I can see him using sex itself as a means of control. In the end, everything with Xemnas seems to boil down to two things: what's best for him, and how he can best keep others (and anyone else he happens across) under his control. I'm a XemSai fan, and I've never seen it as cuddles and fluffy bunnies and what have you. Saix is in it to get into Xemnas's good graces; he seems attracted to power, and in the Organization, power is concentrated at the top. Xemnas is likely in it because Saix poses a challenge with regards to his control, and he probably gets hard over being able to keep absolute control over someone as strong as Saix in a situation where people are traditionally vulnerable (take Zevran from Dragon Age Origins and his view that some of the best assassination work is done while on your back).
Sane people could, but oh god. Dumbest argument I've heard in favour of it (and in favour of XigDem, which horrifies me like nothing else in the fandom)? 'Vexen is old and weak and ugly, so he needs someone young and strong and pretty like Marluxia to balance him out. You just can't look at him unless you've got something pretty there as well!' And this chick actually thought that MADE SENSE.
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Pffff, completely off topic, but you remind me of a fic I once wrote in the idea that the apprentices grew up in the castle kind of under Ansem's care. Even was one of the two people who found Ienzo, who was a runaway, and brought him back, so Ienzo's always thought of him as the other guy to go to when Aeleus is unavailable, or if he's closer. That was the point when Ienzo, never having seen snow, freaks out about it one morning and goes to pester him of all people. There was some bickering. XD
I think I've already mentioned this somewhere, but I don't play Xemnas partially because I'm scared shitless of him. I don't really have that much experience with him. |D Still, I get what you mean about him doing it for power and not being some pathetic slave to sex. My Zexion's actually a little bit similar, because he knows sex/pleasure is one of those ways you can control someone or get them to work with you- hell, it's half the reason he even partakes in the act, being Mister Spy. Also, like dear Zevran said, good for getting rid of others.
And WHHAAAAT. Sorry, gotta get out of the strike throughs for that little gem. Are you fuckin' kidding me? -facepalm- Man, I feel like I gotta do an entirely separate rant on that, but I'd be preaching to the choir right now, wouldn't I? Uuuuugh, fandumb, come on, you're killing me here.
Besides, Vexen is only unattactive in that mode where everyone is unattractive: he's acting like a douche half/most of the time and he holds back none of his 'emotions'/thoughts on a matter. Very few people are attractive when they're pissed off or being dicks, like Vexen is mostly seen doing. I mean, goddammit, lookit him! -points at icon- Besides, he could be goddamn Quasimodo, but when you have Derek Stephen Prince doing your voice in that kind of awesome... Sorry, nostalgia. XD Vexen's English voice makes me strangely happy.
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What do they feed these people in Hollow Bastion? Seriously, Dilan, Even, and Elaeus are all huge. So's Xehanort, a little less.
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It's weird, too, because they're all huge in different ways. Aeleus is a frickin' mountain, Dilan looks like an enormous carrot (big upper body, slim hips), and Even is just HELLA tall but nicely proportioned -- it's like they took a relatively normal, somewhat hip-py guy, and just made him way above normal scale.
Milk, it does an Apprentice good, I guess? I want whatever the hell they've been eating, I know that much. My 5'-4" ass could use it.
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Braig, Isa, and Dilan... Crap, IDK. My hard drive failed catastrophically last week and I lost all of my BbS pictures and a huge amount of other stuff as well. I seem to remember Braig having them, at least, along with brown eyes. In the one crappy picture of Dilan I have online, his ears look pretty normal.
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I tend to think of the capacity to freeze things, not being hurt by/being healed by cold, etc. as fitting into the whole ice thing. Again, it's a matter of personal interpretation. I think the important part is that it's portrayed realistically. I play my Vexen as having the greater level of capacity, but the other characters have similar capacities, and their weaknesses balance that power out. Xigbar may well be able to shoot Vexen in the back from other side of the room while they're facing each other, but all the bullets in the world won't help him if it's too cold for his guns to fire, or for him to keep his hands steady to aim well. (And Xemnas's crazy ass does a lot for keeping them all from just killing each other.) I've seen other playouts of the version you go with turn out equally well. And I've seen atrocities in both camps.
Honestly, I suspect Vexen would win, and not because I adore him and detest Demyx. Vexen's a primary ice elemental while Demyx is a secondary, if you go by the old school Squeenix system, and strong ice magic traditionally does more damage than water magic (Water is basically pointless to keep around if you have Blizzaga, for example). Plus, it lends itself better to tight control, projectiles, and so on, which plays well into Vexen's preference for keeping his distance. I mean, Vexen might not enjoy being wet, but it probably wouldn't hurt him -- he'd just be really cranky afterward, and would either have a hissy or not even lower himself to discussing the matter, depending on his mood. But extreme cold and enormous spires of ice can cause all sorts of problems. Though in all honesty, Vexen probably can't even be bothered to acknowledge the fact that Demyx exists, most of the time. They function on completely different levels, and Vex sort of lives in his own little world of science.
I do agree with the point of annoyance, though. Especially with Marluxia, because he's where I see it the most (I don't really do LexZex, simply because the anatomical strain involved makes my brain hurt and I kinda have this soft spot for XalLex, but I can see where the idea would play in there as well). He's strong, sure, but he's not a god, and while his elemental affinity is somewhat fringe, it's not invincible -- plants don't like fire OR ice, for example, or lightning for that matter. I hate when authors overpower a character, and then decide that other characters are so ~intimidated~ by said seme's might and power that they immediately fall all over them, don't fight back against physical/sexual aggression, etc. That's what pisses me off the most about the whole thing.
Seriously, the only time it makes sense to have an overpowered character is with Xemnas, because... Christ, look at him. He's everything you mentioned. Though then we get into the people who write him as some romantic sot, which makes me go D:
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I personally don't agree with this, mainly I think because I played FFX to start. In there, ice and water are equal. The elemental polarities go like this:
Fire<>Ice
Thunder<>Water
If you use, say, Ice or Fire on a Water beast it would do half damage, Thunder would do 2x damage, and Water would heal it. (I think.)
So I feel that Vexen vs. Demyx would have to be called off. They're technically the same element, so Demyx might make 5-foot tsunamis and exploding bubbles but Vexen would be able to freeze them. Demyx might possibly win in my mind, but only because Vexen spends so much of his time in the lab. I don't believe we ever fight him, so I don't know how strong he is.
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