I think being a scientist actually puts Vexen in a unique position with regard to tactics and combat effectiveness. Zexion as well, though I can see Vexen as being far more of a worry-wort about the whole idea and wanting to have a thorough mental grounding in things, 'just in case'. One of his principle qualities is that he's highly analytical. In battle, we see that he's actually quite effective with his weapon; it's just as offensive as it is defensive. It's logical that Vexen, above all the others (and Zexion might actually outstrip him here, though Zexion is also one to let others do the fighting for him, so it's kind of a toss-up), would be able to quickly take in a situation and determine the most effective means of attack, as well as adjust to changing circumstances. It's not a matter of being a master tactician, it's a matter of being intelligent, cool, analytical, and thinking before acting.
In short, he knows that he will never be the strongest in combat, and so he uses the abilities he has in greater quantity than the others to compensate for that fact. As we saw, it wasn't quite enough in the end. There is always the chance that it won't be. Like the others, however, Vexen does the best with what he has at his disposal, and it's quite frankly insulting that people write him off as a weakling and a dullard just because he's a scientist (how they reconcile that last one with the scientist label, IDK). Can he bench-press 300 lbs.? I would say that no, and he probably wouldn't even try. Is he extremely effective with the weapon he has, and is it logical that he would consider his own weaknesses and devise means to counter them, in the event that he's placed in a combat situation? Absolutely. In my mind, to say that he wouldn't do such is quite out of character for a man who thrives so much on observation and analysis.
Actually, yes, I have seen one of those firehoses. And the trick is that you have to hit a target with it. Vexen tends to move around a LOT during battle and do so reasonably quickly, which makes a single line of attack sometimes not the best option (over, say, an attack consisting of multiple small projectiles -- each does less damage, but there's a greater chance of one or more hitting). If Vexen got hit with that? Absolutely, it would hurt. But it's going to be reasonably difficult to hit a target that's constantly moving. Plus, it comes back to the crux of this particular situation that you're choosing to overlook, which is elemental relation between water and ice. I'm pretty certain that having an enormous chunk of ice dropped on someone would hurt like hell. That doesn't mean that it doesn't actually HEAL certain enemies. I've freely admitted that Vexen would likely have to break with the tactics we traditionally see him use in order to get Demyx in a losing situation, because of that potential compatibility. Demyx may not be the strongest character in the game, but from a magical standpoint, he'd probably still be one of the more difficult for Vexen to cope with because of the ice family tree in KH. To be really effective against him, Vexen would have to use a combination of magic, strong physical attacks, and flat-out psychological warfare.
So you see, there's no need to get snippy and start crying 'hypocrisy!' I dish out the exact same treatment to the other characters, in applicable situations, and am more than happy to point out where characters will fail as well as where they will succeed. I have just done that numerous times. If you would like further examples, I will be more than happy to oblige you. Debate is, I think, an enjoyable aspect of fandom.
You may not have used the words that Vexen would win in a fair fight, but much of your argument implies that certain characters would only win if they had the advantage of striking first. For example:
"Xigbar may well be able to shoot Vexen in the back from other side of the room while they're facing each other, but all the bullets in the world won't help him if it's too cold for his guns to fire, or for him to keep his hands steady to aim well."
"Conversely, if Vexen had gotten the jump on Axel first? Pyro would be nothing more than a pointy ice sculpture, because fire has an EQUAL weakness against ice."
I never insisted that you said any of those points word for word, but the points that you left out and the examples that you gave give the impression that you overpower him very often, frequently predicting that he would win one fight or another. Not to mention, that you don't tend to stick to the attacks or tactics that he uses within the game, but rather go on the element itself, what you know about it, and assume that he would use that knowledge to his tactical advantage, even when he doesn't within the game.
That, in turn, doesn't make it sound as if you considered that it may be beyond his control of the element and that is why he falls back on using the techniques he does use in Kingdom Hearts, rather than just following through with theories about his element and allowing it to destroy his enemies. I think it's possible that you're focusing too much on elemental theory, rather than combat skill as well.
And the fire hose was an example. Looking at how Demyx managed to summon water columns from the ground, he could probably hit a moving target, but again that would depend on it being in the right place and the right time, meaning it'd be a literal hit or miss. I was simply pointing out that it would be unlikely that Vexen would be wet, but unhurt, as you described him earlier.
I'm not interested in a debate, since while it's an enjoyable part of fandom, tl;dr is really not. I was just pointing out certain flaws in your argument that could end up lumping you with all the other people who overpower their favorite characters, that you were criticizing in the first place.
So pardon me, if I don't think I was "getting snippy and crying 'hypocrisy!'", but your argument at the time seemed a little one-sided. I backed up my claim with the parts of your argument that gave me that hypocritical impression, allowing you to clear that up. So you don't make it sound like it's an unfounded accusation. It wasn't, and I stated why clearly.
Wow, way to jump to conclusions! If I overpower Vexen, then goddamn, I must overpower every character in the game, considering I give them similar treatment and consideration. Note to self, start disregarding logic and under-powering everyone from now on so that no one ever has an advantage, ever.
Both of the instances you just cited do have a certain basis for possibility. There are temperatures below which a bullet will not fire (though of course, this necessitates that Xigbar's bullets use gunpowder, which I've seen thrown up for debate before -- here we go with that personal interpretation thing again), and ice is polar to fire, which means that Vexen has the same surprise advantage over Axel that Axel has over him. That one very, very definitely goes both ways. In direct confrontation? I don't think either of them would particularly enjoy how that went, considering every attack that lands is going to do extra damage. That's just a sucky situation all around -- and probably a very good reason why Axel would backstab rather than confront openly. I don't like Axel, but I'm one of the first to admit that he's cunning and intelligent.
I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm too focused on elemental theory. I've already stated very openly that certain things may well be beyond the scope of his elemental control, necessitating a change in tactics. I've said repeatedly that in many situations, his element is actually less helpful than being able to think his way through a situation and use pinpointed physical attacks. In numerous situations, it would likely be his analytical tendencies that would keep him intact. In others, magic is a wiser choice.
If we go strictly with what's in the game, there's very little enjoyment. A game is programmed; there's only a certain amount of information that can reasonably be incorporated. People, or not!people, aren't programs. If you wish to examine nothing but the coded framework, then by all means do so. I prefer a more comprehensive view that, by necessity, requires personal interpretation of characters and situations beyond what's scripted. I've already said that there are many different interpretations, all of them valid. YMMV.
If you don't enjoy tl;dr, then please don't attack a person's viewpoint and personal integrity with the belief that they won't defend both thoroughly. You will receive a rebuttal; if you can't handle that, then I suggest that you not bring the matter up in the first place, especially not in fandom that doesn't have quite has so much that's open to discussion/left to the imagination.
There is a difference between people who view a character as powerful but also accept that there are situations they can't handle, weaknesses that they need to overcome (that sometimes CAN'T be overcome), etc., and people who OP a character with absolutely no checks or balances. You may, of course, continue to think what you wish. However, I think that I have proved that I consider all aspects of all characters involved in a situation, and am very willing to admit that no one character will come out on top all the time except for perhaps Xemnas, who's canon OP and hardly counts anyway. In fact, I go so far as to say that my favourite character will come out on top less frequently than many of the others.
You've mentioned this already, and my comment was focused on your narration on Vexen's powers and strengths. I didn't ask for you to go into the strengths and powers of another character, because I'm honestly not all that interested, but I did hear you say that you view all characters equally and that was somewhat apparent in your follow up argument several times over. So sarcasm is really unnecessary, but if you want to follow through on that note-to-self, by all means.
I agree with both your second points, and was simply pointing out areas in your original argument that allowed me to come to my conclusion. By too focused on elemental theory, I mean I get the sense that you're judging certain character's effectiveness against each other almost solely based on their element, rather than their fighting style. For example, short-ranged characters would have to find tactics to fight long-range characters, without receiving lots of damage while attempting to approach them to get a hit in, and vice versa. In your initial comment, you seem more focused with the characters using their elements alone, but again, that was cleared up in the follow up.
Then that explains a lot, doesn't it? What you're explaining is very much a personal interpretation of Vexen, and a limited amount of Vexen as we see him in canon. It certainly does me no harm if you stick to that interpretation, but at first, I wasn't aware that the Vexen you were referring to was based on so much of it.
I wasn't attacking you personally, but simply asking you to take a step back and justify your comment (which you did) because it sounded as if you were overpowering Vexen, making you sound awfully hypocritical. While I did expect a rebuttal, it's possible to make those practical and concise while getting your point across, as opposed to excessively long-winded and thus tedious to read. As for 'not being able to handle it', I took the time and effort to actually go through it, so you can get off your high horse.
About your last paragraph: I'm glad you're willing to do so, even if it didn't come across all that much in your initial comments about Vexen's powers and the examples you gave, you certainly went to great lengths to clear that up. Ending this here, because I've got better things to do.
Then don't bring up instances that involve other characters. Simple as that. When you do, you will get explanations that involve other characters, since the comparative relations seem so important to you.
I play a Vexen based on interpretation, AU versions, and a version that adheres strictly to the confines of the game. The latter is by far the least interesting. I would go so far as to say two-dimensional. Not through lack of skill on my part (I've received compliments on every version I play), but because he was around for a few minutes and that's all. ANYONE who plays a fleshed-out Vexen (or any of the CO crew, for the most part) is doing a lot of interpretation.
I'm sorry if you find replies more than a couple sentences long tedious to read and long-winded. In the future, I will happily condense my replies to 'because I said so, I have smart reasons, so there,' for the sake of the delicate sensibilities of strangers on the internet. I think that you're the one in the saddle here, not me. After all, you're the didactic one with the need to instruct my lowly self in the art of rhetoric.
I have better things to do as well. If you feel the need to further critique my explanations, which are incidentally based on the fact that 95% of the fandom is composed of utter MORONS who need every goddamn principle written out for them with numerous examples and fucking flow charts, then by all means PM me. Otherwise, have a good day and let's be thankful that we obviously work in different circles. I know I am; I'd rather have fun with the characters.
I think being a scientist actually puts Vexen in a unique position with regard to tactics and combat effectiveness. Zexion as well, though I can see Vexen as being far more of a worry-wort about the whole idea and wanting to have a thorough mental grounding in things, 'just in case'. One of his principle qualities is that he's highly analytical. In battle, we see that he's actually quite effective with his weapon; it's just as offensive as it is defensive. It's logical that Vexen, above all the others (and Zexion might actually outstrip him here, though Zexion is also one to let others do the fighting for him, so it's kind of a toss-up), would be able to quickly take in a situation and determine the most effective means of attack, as well as adjust to changing circumstances. It's not a matter of being a master tactician, it's a matter of being intelligent, cool, analytical, and thinking before acting.
In short, he knows that he will never be the strongest in combat, and so he uses the abilities he has in greater quantity than the others to compensate for that fact. As we saw, it wasn't quite enough in the end. There is always the chance that it won't be. Like the others, however, Vexen does the best with what he has at his disposal, and it's quite frankly insulting that people write him off as a weakling and a dullard just because he's a scientist (how they reconcile that last one with the scientist label, IDK). Can he bench-press 300 lbs.? I would say that no, and he probably wouldn't even try. Is he extremely effective with the weapon he has, and is it logical that he would consider his own weaknesses and devise means to counter them, in the event that he's placed in a combat situation? Absolutely. In my mind, to say that he wouldn't do such is quite out of character for a man who thrives so much on observation and analysis.
Actually, yes, I have seen one of those firehoses. And the trick is that you have to hit a target with it. Vexen tends to move around a LOT during battle and do so reasonably quickly, which makes a single line of attack sometimes not the best option (over, say, an attack consisting of multiple small projectiles -- each does less damage, but there's a greater chance of one or more hitting). If Vexen got hit with that? Absolutely, it would hurt. But it's going to be reasonably difficult to hit a target that's constantly moving. Plus, it comes back to the crux of this particular situation that you're choosing to overlook, which is elemental relation between water and ice. I'm pretty certain that having an enormous chunk of ice dropped on someone would hurt like hell. That doesn't mean that it doesn't actually HEAL certain enemies. I've freely admitted that Vexen would likely have to break with the tactics we traditionally see him use in order to get Demyx in a losing situation, because of that potential compatibility. Demyx may not be the strongest character in the game, but from a magical standpoint, he'd probably still be one of the more difficult for Vexen to cope with because of the ice family tree in KH. To be really effective against him, Vexen would have to use a combination of magic, strong physical attacks, and flat-out psychological warfare.
So you see, there's no need to get snippy and start crying 'hypocrisy!' I dish out the exact same treatment to the other characters, in applicable situations, and am more than happy to point out where characters will fail as well as where they will succeed. I have just done that numerous times. If you would like further examples, I will be more than happy to oblige you. Debate is, I think, an enjoyable aspect of fandom.
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"Xigbar may well be able to shoot Vexen in the back from other side of the room while they're facing each other, but all the bullets in the world won't help him if it's too cold for his guns to fire, or for him to keep his hands steady to aim well."
"Conversely, if Vexen had gotten the jump on Axel first? Pyro would be nothing more than a pointy ice sculpture, because fire has an EQUAL weakness against ice."
I never insisted that you said any of those points word for word, but the points that you left out and the examples that you gave give the impression that you overpower him very often, frequently predicting that he would win one fight or another. Not to mention, that you don't tend to stick to the attacks or tactics that he uses within the game, but rather go on the element itself, what you know about it, and assume that he would use that knowledge to his tactical advantage, even when he doesn't within the game.
That, in turn, doesn't make it sound as if you considered that it may be beyond his control of the element and that is why he falls back on using the techniques he does use in Kingdom Hearts, rather than just following through with theories about his element and allowing it to destroy his enemies. I think it's possible that you're focusing too much on elemental theory, rather than combat skill as well.
And the fire hose was an example. Looking at how Demyx managed to summon water columns from the ground, he could probably hit a moving target, but again that would depend on it being in the right place and the right time, meaning it'd be a literal hit or miss. I was simply pointing out that it would be unlikely that Vexen would be wet, but unhurt, as you described him earlier.
I'm not interested in a debate, since while it's an enjoyable part of fandom, tl;dr is really not. I was just pointing out certain flaws in your argument that could end up lumping you with all the other people who overpower their favorite characters, that you were criticizing in the first place.
So pardon me, if I don't think I was "getting snippy and crying 'hypocrisy!'", but your argument at the time seemed a little one-sided. I backed up my claim with the parts of your argument that gave me that hypocritical impression, allowing you to clear that up. So you don't make it sound like it's an unfounded accusation. It wasn't, and I stated why clearly.
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Both of the instances you just cited do have a certain basis for possibility. There are temperatures below which a bullet will not fire (though of course, this necessitates that Xigbar's bullets use gunpowder, which I've seen thrown up for debate before -- here we go with that personal interpretation thing again), and ice is polar to fire, which means that Vexen has the same surprise advantage over Axel that Axel has over him. That one very, very definitely goes both ways. In direct confrontation? I don't think either of them would particularly enjoy how that went, considering every attack that lands is going to do extra damage. That's just a sucky situation all around -- and probably a very good reason why Axel would backstab rather than confront openly. I don't like Axel, but I'm one of the first to admit that he's cunning and intelligent.
I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm too focused on elemental theory. I've already stated very openly that certain things may well be beyond the scope of his elemental control, necessitating a change in tactics. I've said repeatedly that in many situations, his element is actually less helpful than being able to think his way through a situation and use pinpointed physical attacks. In numerous situations, it would likely be his analytical tendencies that would keep him intact. In others, magic is a wiser choice.
If we go strictly with what's in the game, there's very little enjoyment. A game is programmed; there's only a certain amount of information that can reasonably be incorporated. People, or not!people, aren't programs. If you wish to examine nothing but the coded framework, then by all means do so. I prefer a more comprehensive view that, by necessity, requires personal interpretation of characters and situations beyond what's scripted. I've already said that there are many different interpretations, all of them valid. YMMV.
If you don't enjoy tl;dr, then please don't attack a person's viewpoint and personal integrity with the belief that they won't defend both thoroughly. You will receive a rebuttal; if you can't handle that, then I suggest that you not bring the matter up in the first place, especially not in fandom that doesn't have quite has so much that's open to discussion/left to the imagination.
There is a difference between people who view a character as powerful but also accept that there are situations they can't handle, weaknesses that they need to overcome (that sometimes CAN'T be overcome), etc., and people who OP a character with absolutely no checks or balances. You may, of course, continue to think what you wish. However, I think that I have proved that I consider all aspects of all characters involved in a situation, and am very willing to admit that no one character will come out on top all the time except for perhaps Xemnas, who's canon OP and hardly counts anyway. In fact, I go so far as to say that my favourite character will come out on top less frequently than many of the others.
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I agree with both your second points, and was simply pointing out areas in your original argument that allowed me to come to my conclusion. By too focused on elemental theory, I mean I get the sense that you're judging certain character's effectiveness against each other almost solely based on their element, rather than their fighting style. For example, short-ranged characters would have to find tactics to fight long-range characters, without receiving lots of damage while attempting to approach them to get a hit in, and vice versa. In your initial comment, you seem more focused with the characters using their elements alone, but again, that was cleared up in the follow up.
Then that explains a lot, doesn't it? What you're explaining is very much a personal interpretation of Vexen, and a limited amount of Vexen as we see him in canon. It certainly does me no harm if you stick to that interpretation, but at first, I wasn't aware that the Vexen you were referring to was based on so much of it.
I wasn't attacking you personally, but simply asking you to take a step back and justify your comment (which you did) because it sounded as if you were overpowering Vexen, making you sound awfully hypocritical. While I did expect a rebuttal, it's possible to make those practical and concise while getting your point across, as opposed to excessively long-winded and thus tedious to read. As for 'not being able to handle it', I took the time and effort to actually go through it, so you can get off your high horse.
About your last paragraph: I'm glad you're willing to do so, even if it didn't come across all that much in your initial comments about Vexen's powers and the examples you gave, you certainly went to great lengths to clear that up. Ending this here, because I've got better things to do.
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I play a Vexen based on interpretation, AU versions, and a version that adheres strictly to the confines of the game. The latter is by far the least interesting. I would go so far as to say two-dimensional. Not through lack of skill on my part (I've received compliments on every version I play), but because he was around for a few minutes and that's all. ANYONE who plays a fleshed-out Vexen (or any of the CO crew, for the most part) is doing a lot of interpretation.
I'm sorry if you find replies more than a couple sentences long tedious to read and long-winded. In the future, I will happily condense my replies to 'because I said so, I have smart reasons, so there,' for the sake of the delicate sensibilities of strangers on the internet. I think that you're the one in the saddle here, not me. After all, you're the didactic one with the need to instruct my lowly self in the art of rhetoric.
I have better things to do as well. If you feel the need to further critique my explanations, which are incidentally based on the fact that 95% of the fandom is composed of utter MORONS who need every goddamn principle written out for them with numerous examples and fucking flow charts, then by all means PM me. Otherwise, have a good day and let's be thankful that we obviously work in different circles. I know I am; I'd rather have fun with the characters.
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