Not an essay...

[frenchani]

And yet here I am, discussing Buffy again, and it's all stormwreath 's andjamalov29 's fault!

There were talks about feminism and feminist icon on their lj and it triggered that Buffy-trained muscle that has been dormant for a while, a part of my brain I thought I no longer had a use of. I toldjamalov29 that I disagreed with her views according to which Joss had made Buffy fall

Comments

[jamalov29]

Buffy found herself madly "in love" and behaved like a silly smitten girl but she still fought with Spike, not letting him make the decisions for the couple, was bossy and warned that she wouldn't stop her job after the wedding etc...and her strength was emphasized by the fact he fought he couldn't fight demons and had to relie on her for security matters. Spike mentioned "girl power" then. Yes . Nods profusely.

I do think that, for a woman, acknowledging your personal sexuality, needs, likes and dislikes-- whether it's a powerful libido or a weaker one whatever-- instead of following what is expected from you by the others(especially those of the male category), is part of female empowerment. You're so right. I didn't even think of that particular aspect of their sexual games.
Buffy became a true feminist icon then. In season 7 she regained her feminist status in my eyes , too.

It is possible that I would have found the scenes ridiculous or boring but I doubted I would have been shocked or uncomfortable . from the scans I could

[frenchani]

if the both of them are Universe pawns , there's no threat for the feminist status.

From The One Who Chooses and changed the world to simple pawn I say that it's a huge fall !!!

"If Buffy is so "in love" that she prefered to shag the one who had recently killed many of her "sisters" it is quite sad, and I understand that many fans considered it "a fall from feminist grace"". I disagree. I'm also too tired to argue.:(

Too bad! I'm exhausted too, but stubborn, so in case you didn't understand me above, I shall explain again. I can see it as a fall from the feminism she embodied in "Chosen" because it would be going back on the choice she made in "Chosen", she made that "race of slayers" so jumping Angel while knowing what he did (and doesn't regret!)means sort of accepting his Slayer-slaughtering agenda, considering his Slayercide less important than lust/love while the race of slayers represented female empowerment. It's anti-feminist.

Allez au lit! Bonne nuit.

[jamalov29]

From The One Who Chooses and changed the world to simple pawn I say that it's a huge fall !!! Ah but it could be regarded as a fall it it were the final issue , and it isn't. It's part of the journey. Again, a strong and self-confident woman can be weak without losing her feminist qualities in a heartbeat.

so jumping Angel while knowing what he did (and doesn't regret!)means sort of accepting his Slayer-slaughtering agenda, considering his Slayercide less important than lust/love while the race of slayers represented female empowerment. It's anti-feminist. See stormwreath 's comment on this , he spoke on my behalf I would say.

[enigmaticblues]

This was a very thoughtful, and thought-provoking, post. If nothing else, S8 and the recent issue, have given us some really great meta.

[frenchani]

Thank you for taking the time to read my contribution in spite of my clumsy English.

[stormwreath]

For something that's not an essay that was very thoughtful and, well, long. ;-)

I don't think that the premise of BtVs is necessarily feminist.I think that depends on how you're defining feminism. If you go with "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people", then 'Buffy' - a show which takes its female protagonist seriously, shows her growing into a strong, self-confident and heroic woman respected by her friends and enemies alike - is very much feminist. It's only if you say that to qualify, a show must tackle "serious themes" about women's rights in a very self-conscious manner that questions arise. S7 does do that, and I think there was an element of Joss saying "The show's nearly over, so let's make our underlying message explicit now so we end on a positive note"; but that doesn't invalidate the earlier seasons

[penny_lane_42]

If you go with "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people", then 'Buffy' - a show which takes its female protagonist seriously, shows her growing into a strong, self-confident and heroic woman respected by her friends and enemies alike - is very much feminist.

I agree with this. That's one reason Buffy is so important to me: her story is presented as important. She's the hero of her own life. That's a very rare and precious thing.

Of course, I often want more, but I'm thankful that this never wavered (well...except for the AR, which I would argue makes her story subservient to Spike's, but that's a whole 'nother issue).

And...I'm not going to comment on the rest. :D

[frenchani]

I think that depends on how you're defining feminism. If you go with "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people", then 'Buffy' - a show which takes its female protagonist seriously, shows her growing into a strong, self-confident and heroic woman respected by her friends and enemies alike - is very much feminist. It's only if you say that to qualify, a show must tackle "serious themes" about women's rights in a very self-conscious manner that questions arise. S7 does do that, and I think there was an element of Joss saying "The show's nearly over, so let's make our underlying message explicit now so we end on a positive note"; but that doesn't invalidate the earlier seasons.I completely agree. Of course not many tv shows had such strong female lead, so of course BtVS could be seen as "feminist" since day one, but I still believe that it wasn't the biggest deal then, that Joss' hidden agenda was rather to subvert a certain horror genre, and twist common tropes, and that growing-up is the main issue the whole series talk

[aycheb]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Angel did kill hundreds of Slayers, didn't he?All we know for certain is that 206 Slayers have been killed. We haven't seen Twilight personally kill a single one of them and Angel says he didn't. The Slayers were killed either by attacking demon armies, human mobs or the human army that attacked Buffy's depowered Slayers in Tibet. The question is what Angel's role was. He is the figurehead for the Twilight movement which has been behind the human army attacks but it's unclear whether he's given the order for say the attacks on Tibet or been unable or unwilling to stop his military supporters from making them. He tells Buffy he's been trying to reduce the severity of the attacks and I think the idea that governments and the military would act to eliminate Slayer terrorists with or without Twilight's intervention is believable. However, given his superpowers and the fact that he has the ear of the anti-slayer people it's hard to believe that he couldn't have done more to stop the killings. But that's a

[elisi]

Excellent non-essay! :)

Especially loved how you phrased this:

Buffy "graduated" from Chosen One to the One Who Chooses which is already a feminist message.
That's absolutely perfect, and I love it.

[frenchani]

I had forgotten how much I loved to write on Buffy! ;- )

It would be much easier to write in my language but I do my best with the phrasing. ;- )

[penny_lane_42]

This is really excellent! I feel like it should inspire some thinky thoughts in return, but I really just want to express my gratitude for it. I especially love your insights about Buffy becoming a vampire in S6--that's not something I'd ever consciously grappled with before, and I think it's very insightful. And kind of awesome. :D

Your entire last paragraph is perfect. I think this is something that's getting lost in the whole debate about Buffy herself: if it turns out that the "Chosen" spell was a horrible thing, than that completely undermines the metaphor that was at the core of that episode. And yes, I do believe that would make the comics anti-feminist. As someone who thinks that Joss isn't particularly concerned with feminism but only with inverting tropes, I wouldn't be surprised if he was willing to throw the feminist metaphor under the bus just so he can subvert whatever it is he thinks he's subverting in S8. And...that makes me very, very sad.

[frenchani]

Thank you. I felt a bit like a fraud for tackling the comics issue whithout having read s8 but your comment makes me think I wasn't completely off the mark.

[red_satin_doll]

Your entire last paragraph is perfect. I think this is something that's getting lost in the whole debate about Buffy herself: if it turns out that the "Chosen" spell was a horrible thing, than that completely undermines the metaphor that was at the core of that episode. And yes, I do believe that would make the comics anti-feminist. As someone who thinks that Joss isn't particularly concerned with feminism but only with inverting tropes, I wouldn't be surprised if he was willing to throw the feminist metaphor under the bus just so he can subvert whatever it is he thinks he's subverting in S8. And...that makes me very, very sad.

You've summed my feelings perfectly here. I was able to appreciate the emotional message of Chosen even while intellectually pondering the whole "super-race" question or acknowledge the flaws in execution. But Chosen represented an "end" of an arc, a (specifically female, post-modern) hero's journey; to them reverse that entirely and tear Buffy down feels like a knife in my gut, never mind not making a bit of