Not an essay...

[frenchani]

And yet here I am, discussing Buffy again, and it's all stormwreath 's andjamalov29 's fault!

There were talks about feminism and feminist icon on their lj and it triggered that Buffy-trained muscle that has been dormant for a while, a part of my brain I thought I no longer had a use of. I toldjamalov29 that I disagreed with her views according to which Joss had made Buffy fall

Comments

[frenchani]

I think that depends on how you're defining feminism. If you go with "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people", then 'Buffy' - a show which takes its female protagonist seriously, shows her growing into a strong, self-confident and heroic woman respected by her friends and enemies alike - is very much feminist. It's only if you say that to qualify, a show must tackle "serious themes" about women's rights in a very self-conscious manner that questions arise. S7 does do that, and I think there was an element of Joss saying "The show's nearly over, so let's make our underlying message explicit now so we end on a positive note"; but that doesn't invalidate the earlier seasons.

I completely agree. Of course not many tv shows had such strong female lead, so of course BtVS could be seen as "feminist" since day one, but I still believe that it wasn't the biggest deal then, that Joss' hidden agenda was rather to subvert a certain horror genre, and twist common tropes, and that growing-up is the main issue the whole series talk about.

I know it's possibly dangerous to say this in your hearing (;-)), but I do think Buffy had the hots for Angel all along - at least in a small, tucked away part of her mind. He was her first lover and she never quite got over him. That doesn't mean she can't love anybody else, and I think she's well aware that a relationship with Angel is a bad idea and would never work... but whenever she sees him again, part of her reacts the way the 17-year old girl did.

*gets ready to fetch the Scythe*

Actually, I don't disagree at all with that. I've always thought that when you do love you don't stop loving. My problem wasn't the fact that she never really got over me and that he would still have an effect on her, but that he jumped his bones in spite of knowing he was Twilight and choosing to turn a blind eye on it.

She's seen her Slayer Army vilified and destroyed by the rest of humanity. Many of the women who trusted her to lead them are dead. She's been told that it will all come to nothing; posterity won't even remember them. Because she's Buffy, she blames herself for this. Then Angel comes along to say that no, everything that's happened wasn't for nothing; there's a higher purpose behind it all.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Angel did kill hundreds of Slayers, didn't he? He isn't just giving a meaning to the death of said Slayer. He did destroy what she had made possible. Anyway the fact that so many Slayer were destroyed because they were Slayer (not because it's a dangerous job with expiration date, but because they became a target, like in a genocide) and the decision she made in "Chosen" might now, possibly, be showed as a mistake undermines a metaphor that was such a great way to end Buffy's journey with.

But again my "reading" is based on reactions I read not on the comics themselves, and I was mostly trying to explain why I, unlike Caroline, understood the reasons fans could consider the S. 8 storyline "a fall from feminist grace". And above all, I wanted to point that Buffy, despite all her lowest moments in the late seasons was more than never a feminist icon.

But yes using the comics here, while I never read one issue, and backing up my points with hearsay wasn't really sporting. :- )

[aycheb]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Angel did kill hundreds of Slayers, didn't he?
All we know for certain is that 206 Slayers have been killed. We haven't seen Twilight personally kill a single one of them and Angel says he didn't. The Slayers were killed either by attacking demon armies, human mobs or the human army that attacked Buffy's depowered Slayers in Tibet. The question is what Angel's role was. He is the figurehead for the Twilight movement which has been behind the human army attacks but it's unclear whether he's given the order for say the attacks on Tibet or been unable or unwilling to stop his military supporters from making them. He tells Buffy he's been trying to reduce the severity of the attacks and I think the idea that governments and the military would act to eliminate Slayer terrorists with or without Twilight's intervention is believable. However, given his superpowers and the fact that he has the ear of the anti-slayer people it's hard to believe that he couldn't have done more to stop the killings. But that's a different thing from finding hard to believe Angel would think he could do no more or Buffy, who's seen even less of Twilights' activities than the readers, believing that Angel was sincere.

[frenchani]

Thanks for clarifying! It wasn't what I had come across before. I knew I shouldn't have venture out onot the comics territory! :- )

I still have a problem with the anti-Slayer thing and what it means in regard to the spell in "Chosen".

I understand that if you carry on Buffy's journey, you have to deal with the existence of hundreds of Slayers over the world and explore storylines (I know that they already did it in Angel with "Damages" but the episode was more about Angel and Spike than about the Slayer so it isn't the same) but I wish Joss had let the Buffyverse rest in peace.