Not an essay...

[frenchani]

And yet here I am, discussing Buffy again, and it's all stormwreath 's andjamalov29 's fault!

There were talks about feminism and feminist icon on their lj and it triggered that Buffy-trained muscle that has been dormant for a while, a part of my brain I thought I no longer had a use of. I toldjamalov29 that I disagreed with her views according to which Joss had made Buffy fall

Comments

[jamalov29]

Buffy found herself madly "in love" and behaved like a silly smitten girl but she still fought with Spike, not letting him make the decisions for the couple, was bossy and warned that she wouldn't stop her job after the wedding etc...and her strength was emphasized by the fact he fought he couldn't fight demons and had to relie on her for security matters. Spike mentioned "girl power" then. Yes . Nods profusely.

I do think that, for a woman, acknowledging your personal sexuality, needs, likes and dislikes-- whether it's a powerful libido or a weaker one whatever-- instead of following what is expected from you by the others(especially those of the male category), is part of female empowerment. You're so right. I didn't even think of that particular aspect of their sexual games.
Buffy became a true feminist icon then. In season 7 she regained her feminist status in my eyes , too.

It is possible that I would have found the scenes ridiculous or boring but I doubted I would have been shocked or uncomfortable . from the scans I could see , it was indeed ridiculous and distasteful but not shocking .

As for the comics , it looks bad either way but, there are several issues that may explain the situation.If they're in a thrall , if the both of them are Universe pawns , there's no threat for the feminist status.
If Buffy is so "in love" that she prefered to shag the one who had recently killed many of her "sisters" it is quite sad, and I understand that many fans considered it "a fall from feminist grace". I disagree. I'm also too tired to argue.:(

You have pretty and great arguments. And I think we we're on agreement on several points. However you know my answer to you in my own post and I cling to my belief about season 6 ,while accepting different povs.

De toutes façons , "ma" Buffy est quelque part en Europe en train de régler leur compte à des créatures démoniaques, avec un flamboyant et féroce Spike à ses côtés. :-)

[frenchani]

if the both of them are Universe pawns , there's no threat for the feminist status.

From The One Who Chooses and changed the world to simple pawn I say that it's a huge fall !!!

"If Buffy is so "in love" that she prefered to shag the one who had recently killed many of her "sisters" it is quite sad, and I understand that many fans considered it "a fall from feminist grace"". I disagree. I'm also too tired to argue.:(

Too bad! I'm exhausted too, but stubborn, so in case you didn't understand me above, I shall explain again. I can see it as a fall from the feminism she embodied in "Chosen" because it would be going back on the choice she made in "Chosen", she made that "race of slayers" so jumping Angel while knowing what he did (and doesn't regret!)means sort of accepting his Slayer-slaughtering agenda, considering his Slayercide less important than lust/love while the race of slayers represented female empowerment. It's anti-feminist.

Allez au lit! Bonne nuit.

[jamalov29]

From The One Who Chooses and changed the world to simple pawn I say that it's a huge fall !!! Ah but it could be regarded as a fall it it were the final issue , and it isn't. It's part of the journey. Again, a strong and self-confident woman can be weak without losing her feminist qualities in a heartbeat.

so jumping Angel while knowing what he did (and doesn't regret!)means sort of accepting his Slayer-slaughtering agenda, considering his Slayercide less important than lust/love while the race of slayers represented female empowerment. It's anti-feminist. See stormwreath 's comment on this , he spoke on my behalf I would say.