Comments | impulsiveanswer: Death Takes a Holiday

impulsiveanswer

Death Takes a Holiday

Mar 13, 2009 10:35

Just a list of things I've been thinking about since the new episode last night that I need to get out of my head before family obligations take me away from internet access for the weekend. You are now officially warned for spoilers:

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supernatural, meta, spn season four

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vichan March 13 2009, 17:07:38 UTC

1. Dean is extremely codependent (both boys are, to an extent, but Dean is a bit worse), and he feels he needs Sam to depend on him - his whole life it's been like that. His lashing out at Sam is actually pretty damn typical of the codependent stereotype. He's not being cruel for the sake of 'twisting the knife.' He's being cruel because he seriously doesn't know how else to handle Sam not needing him anymore. Also, I kind of don't believe Sam's apology, and I don't see why Dean would, either ( ... )

stephie_nhbg March 13 2009, 17:36:57 UTC

I love you for writing this. And wholeheartedly agree. *nods* It would be extreme poetic justice for Dean to take off, and leave Sam flipping a shit. Alas, at the rate Sam's changing I doubt that he would freak out, but still pipe dreams and all that.

khakigrrl March 13 2009, 18:10:18 UTC

Ah, but from the very beginning of the series, the boys have kept secrets ( ... )

vichan March 13 2009, 19:04:01 UTC

The secrets throughout their entire lives just cements Dean's codependency even more, though: that's another very typical stage to codependency.

In the earlier seasons, 99% of their lies were lies by omission - still a lie, but radically different than bald-face lying. This season, Dean lied to Sam to protect Sam (and himself, to a small extent), and Sam lied to Dean to protect Sam (because of being afraid of how Dean would react).

I do see what you're saying about the goals, but I really disagree with you about Dean's overall journey. Yes, I'm a Dean fan, but I also sympathize with him more than any other fictional character I have ever encountered. (Yes, this makes me biased. I admit it. It really is that codependency thing.) Truthfully, I'm not even asking Dean to start showing a real desire for a home, or his own business, or a wife. All we need is for him to care about himself, or at least acknowledge that he has a problem. If the show was never going to address this, why have Bobby, Sam, Castiel, Anna, and now Tessa all ( ... )

khakigrrl March 13 2009, 19:46:32 UTC

Hee! I like your icon. Poor Ronald.

This season, Dean lied to Sam to protect Sam (and himself, to a small extent), and Sam lied to Dean to protect Sam (because of being afraid of how Dean would react).

I'm curious what lie you're referring to in regards to Dean lying to Sam. The only big lie I can think of is the "I don't remember hell" lie which was eventually outed with a further confession of torturing souls. I'd think of that as an omission to protect Dean, 'cause it hurts him too much to talk about it.

I do see what you're saying about the goals, but I really disagree with you about Dean's overall journey.
...
have no idea what direction the show is going (I'm spoiler-free), but I really don't believe it is that far of stretch to see Dean leaving Sam.In this regard, we're gonna have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. I've always seen Sam as the audience POV character...at least at the beginning. Let me explain. The world of Supernatural is unusual to your every day TV watcher. Just as with Carter in ER and Rogue or ( ... )

vichan March 13 2009, 20:20:54 UTC

I love the Mandroid. I have no idea why I latched onto that so hard, but it did. :3

Yes, the lie on Dean's part I was referring to was about him not remembering Hell. Aside from his usual "I'm fine, really!" lies, the only other lie we've seen on Dean's part was the S2 secret of John telling Dean he might have to kill his brother. I don't see that as a lie by omission, because he did remember and yet he flat out said "I don't remember anything." (That's what I meant by 'protecting himself.' He couldn't talk about it, but he also wanted to protect Sam from knowing what his brother is capable of... at least from his perspective.)

Fine with agreeing to disagree. (I get that a lot, actually. ^_^) But this:

Sam and Dean's codependence keep them close to each other and therefore, keep them in conflict. Dean leaving Sam would lose that conflict.
I see the separation as the conflict, much like it was in S1's Scarecrow. It is, in fact, the codependence on Sam's part that started his more recent journey with the abilities, and I believe that ( ... )

khakigrrl March 13 2009, 20:34:32 UTC

You make a good point for separation in the ramping up to season end sense, but I don't agree with the separation coming from a decision made by either of the boys. After all, there are more players in the coming apocalypse than them and the impending rise of Lucifer doesn't seem like a good time for navel-gazing ( ... )

vichan March 13 2009, 20:42:52 UTC

What about a separation as the fallout from a bad choice, either by Sam or Dean. Not in the sense that Dean or Sam leave as a result, but in the sense of injury/coma or even something like mental breakdown/insanity or just leaving like Dean did by going into the past or fighting on another plain like both boys did in the spirit world.

I like that idea quite a bit, actually, especially in the light of Pamela's death. She didn't want to die, and she didn't want any part of the apocalypse. But Sam and Dean don't want any part of the apocalypse, either... and that's getting into thinky-thoughts that I don't think I can process right now. O_O

And speculation is half the reason I love fandom, especially opposing speculations... because it usually either winds up with nobody being right or everyone being right. :)

Forgive me for interrupting, but... ginzai March 13 2009, 22:07:03 UTC

In Season Four, the Goals are on different tracks:
Sam
1. Protect Dean, whether it costs Sam anything or not.
2. Kill Lilith/stop apocalypse, as part of 1.
Dean
1. Save Sam, whether it costs Dean anything or not.
2. Try to recover from Hell.

I really don't see these goals as being accurate. I'll easily admit to being more for Dean than Sam, but I do love Sammy to bits and I love the brothers' relationship even more. That said, I really can't see what you've listed as their top priorities - especially in regards to Sam.

IMHO, Sam's top priority right now is revenge on Lilith, with a side of wanting to stop the apocalypse and return as many demons to Hell as he can. Included subconsciously I imagine is also a goal of increasing his powers to the best of his abilities, to ensure that he's never in a position like he was in the season three finale. All of this spurs from Dean's death, but it seems to me that Sam's focus has shifted beyond Dean-his-brother to more like Dean-as-a-concept, like a figurehead or a static image, something ( ... )

Re: Forgive me for interrupting, but... khakigrrl March 13 2009, 22:49:00 UTC

I'd argue with you, but you're kinda proving the point I was trying to make. (Guess I'm not all that articulate in my thinky thoughts.) ;-)

I don't think things are nearly as simple as they once were and that includes Sam and his take on Dean.Ah, but that's exactly my point. Sam is a much more withdrawn and complex creature to figure out than he was back at Season 1 when was sharing and caring. Sam keeps everything close to the vest, including his emotions, but as you stated, the reasons for his actions all stem back to losing Dean and not wanting to go through that again ( ... )

response part 1! ginzai March 13 2009, 23:41:45 UTC

I'm really loving your thoughts on this whole thing. I adore meta and it's always wonderful to find people willing to discuss it. (I do mean discuss, btw, I'm not trying to argue; your ideas are just really interesting to read and respond to!)

Ah, but that's exactly my point. Sam is a much more withdrawn and complex creature to figure out than he was back at Season 1 when was sharing and caring.Someone made the point that the Sam we're seeing now (darker, somewhat more selfish, less inclined to want to discuss feelings or care about other people's opinions) is less a new Sam as it is a reversion to the pre-series!Sam, who we saw flashes of in season 1 but who was mostly subsumed in a deserve to avenge Jessica. This being the Sam who left Dean and John behind to pursue 'normal', the Sam who didn't bother to call or check in for at least two years (given the interactions between Sam and Dean in the pilot, the whole "I haven't asked you for anything for two years" and all that, it really implies to me that this was Sam's choice, not ( ... )

response part 2! ginzai March 13 2009, 23:41:59 UTC

Or perhaps this is a case where we're both right; Sam thinks he knows best, so he expects Dean to follow his lead and by doing so, Sam will be able to keep Dean safe. However, the way he's doing this is belittling and dismissive.

What if on Halloween Sam hadn't taken point and gone after Samhain? What if he'd given in to Dean and stayed behind to protect the kids?

My point here is that Sam didn't bother to try anything else. He knew what he had to do and went with it, whole-heartedly. He didn't even bother to see what, if any, other options were available and if nothing else, they had two angels in reserve that could have been called on for back up. But Sam didn't even think - he went with his gut, which was to use his powers - breaking his promise to Dean and acting against the explicit warning of the angels in the process.

I do agree though that Sam went after Samhain because he viewed it as the greater threat, the one that he, Sam, was better equipped to handle. And in that, yes, he was acting to protect Dean.

Sam never ( ... )

impulsiveanswer March 16 2009, 17:59:58 UTC

Sam doesn't want Dean to stop whining - he wants Dean to start healing. Dean had a terrible experience - I'll never say otherwise - but he's not doing anything to face it; instead he's drinking, focusing on how betrayed he feels that Sam's changed and that Sam didn't cope with his death in a way he approved of, and basically wallowing in his own guilty feelings ( ... )

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