Death Takes a Holiday
Just a list of things I've been thinking about since the new episode last night that I need to get out of my head before family obligations take me away from internet access for the weekend. You are now officially warned for spoilers:
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I also don't blame Dean one bit for not apologizing. Dean wanted Sam to be his brother again; Sam wanted Dean to quit whining. They were both right when they were under the siren's spell, but Sam hasn't exactly made an effort to reconcile, either. Like I said, his apology strikes me as false, as if he only did because he felt he had to - not because he meant it. Sam's still lying to Dean, still sneaking behind his back, and making some fairly bad decisions. Sam has got a serious superiority complex building up here. :(
I know you'll disagree with this, but they both need some time apart. More specifically, Dean needs to be the one to walk away from Sam. Not the other way around. Sam has left Dean twice now. Sam has already said that he doesn't need Dean, and Dean needs to prove to himself that he doesn't need Sam. In the end, Sam should be the one to come back for Dean, and not because he feels he has to, but because he wants to.
*shrug* Eh. At least that's what I'm hoping for. Once they can be strong and independent without their brother, they'll both come out stronger together in the end.
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Sam didn't tell Dean about dreaming of Jessica's death before she died until "Home." Dean also kept secrets about their mom and what happened that night and about the hunting their dad did.
Just look at John. He makes it clear when we first see him interacting with the boys on a hunt in "Dead Man's Blood" that he's used to giving orders without all the backstory and info that the boys would need to know before going into that nest (i.e. about vampires turning victims and getting the scents of hunters).
This is how they were raised. To keep secrets. Especially if the secrets are of the emotionally painful variety.
I think the main conflict comes from the fact that the boys now have different goals.
Season One Goals:
Sam
1. Find Dad - and thereby the thing that killed Jess.
2. Save people/hunt things with Dean.
Dean
1. Save people/hunt things as Dad ordered.
2. Find Dad - and thereby hook back up to fight together to get the thing that killed Mom.
Season Two Goals:
Sam
1. Save Sam.
2. Get the demon that killed Mom and Jess.
Dean
1. Save Sam.
2. Get the demon that killed Mom.
In Season Three, the Goals start to diverge:
Sam
1. Save Dean.
2. Try to get Dean to help with 1.
Dean
1. Keep Sam safe and get him ready to lose Dean.
2. (Later in) Save Dean, if it doesn't interfere with 1.
In Season Four, the Goals are on different tracks:
Sam
1. Protect Dean, whether it costs Sam anything or not.
2. Kill Lilith/stop apocalypse, as part of 1.
Dean
1. Save Sam, whether it costs Dean anything or not.
2. Try to recover from Hell.
Their number 1 goals are now exact opposites. Dean wants Sam safe, and will do anything, including going back to hell, to protect him. Sam wants Dean safe, and will do anything, including using his demon powers, to protect him. They resent the other keeping them from accomplishing their goals.
I know a lot of Dean fans want him to break from Sam in order to take care of himself. I just don't see Dean, as a character, doing this or getting any peace if he did this. He's been much too focused on preserving what's left of his family since he was 4 to start thinking about what he wants separate from that family. Of course, it's not healthy, and yes a real person could, through much struggle and soul searching and therapy and effort, go through such a deep change in self-perception, but I don't see Dean doing it in the context of the show.
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In the earlier seasons, 99% of their lies were lies by omission - still a lie, but radically different than bald-face lying. This season, Dean lied to Sam to protect Sam (and himself, to a small extent), and Sam lied to Dean to protect Sam (because of being afraid of how Dean would react).
I do see what you're saying about the goals, but I really disagree with you about Dean's overall journey. Yes, I'm a Dean fan, but I also sympathize with him more than any other fictional character I have ever encountered. (Yes, this makes me biased. I admit it. It really is that codependency thing.) Truthfully, I'm not even asking Dean to start showing a real desire for a home, or his own business, or a wife. All we need is for him to care about himself, or at least acknowledge that he has a problem. If the show was never going to address this, why have Bobby, Sam, Castiel, Anna, and now Tessa all pointed his weakness out to him? What was the purpose of writing those scenes?
I do completely see Dean becoming stronger in the context of the show. Codependency is a serious, often overlooked illness, and it really shouldn't be ignored. They've been dropping hints at this since season one, as far back as 'Skin,' and it's just built and built throughout every season. Bobby and Sam have flat-out asked him to his face if he cares anything about himself. Even his 'turning point' in S3, when he decided he didn't want to go to Hell, really seemed to stem more from the fear of becoming a demon rather than actually going to Hell.
This season once again built on this, and even made the problem worse. The first time in the entire series we hear of Dean actually doing something solely for himself, and no one else, is hearing that he made the decision to torture others so he wouldn't be tortured himself. That's huge. I really doubt that the show is going to drop an elephant that large on us and never let Dean get over it.
Uh... point. :) I have no idea what direction the show is going (I'm spoiler-free), but I really don't believe it is that far of stretch to see Dean leaving Sam. I don't see him leaving Sam to specifically learn take care of himself, but because Sam's recent behavior will drive him to leave. I think that in the period of being separate from Sam is when Dean will learn, or at the very least have an epiphany that being 'Dean' means more than being 'Sammy's brother.'
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This season, Dean lied to Sam to protect Sam (and himself, to a small extent), and Sam lied to Dean to protect Sam (because of being afraid of how Dean would react).
I'm curious what lie you're referring to in regards to Dean lying to Sam. The only big lie I can think of is the "I don't remember hell" lie which was eventually outed with a further confession of torturing souls. I'd think of that as an omission to protect Dean, 'cause it hurts him too much to talk about it.
I do see what you're saying about the goals, but I really disagree with you about Dean's overall journey.
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have no idea what direction the show is going (I'm spoiler-free), but I really don't believe it is that far of stretch to see Dean leaving Sam.
In this regard, we're gonna have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. I've always seen Sam as the audience POV character...at least at the beginning. Let me explain. The world of Supernatural is unusual to your every day TV watcher. Just as with Carter in ER and Rogue or Logan in the X-Men movie, at the beginning of Supernatural we met and followed a seemingly normal character (Sam) who we followed into a different world. Yes, that's changed over the seasons, but at the very beginning, we started this journey with Sam (the outsider) rather than with Dean (the expert) in this new Supernatural world.
Of course, not everyone may agree with me...after all, people still watch ER without Carter...but I'd argue that Supernatural without Sam would be a vastly different show. Yes, both Sam and Dean have led episodes and they've even split up, but a longer split would have to follow one or the other of them. One hour just isn't long enough to follow two completely separate groups.
Also, the themes of the show revolve around relationships and family. Look at the cases Sam and Dean handle. The themes of the episodes haven't been about the growth of the individual outside of a familial or friendship unit. They've been about interrelationships and how they work and don't work and what the consequences are to them not working.
People in close physical proximity (like in other stories about castaways or submariners for example) or in close relationships (like with families) have conflict. These pressures help keep the conflict going. A story with no conflict is a conglomeration of facts, not a story. Sam and Dean's codependence keep them close to each other and therefore, keep them in conflict. Dean leaving Sam would lose that conflict.
If the show was never going to address this, why have Bobby, Sam, Castiel, Anna, and now Tessa all pointed his weakness out to him? What was the purpose of writing those scenes?
Ah, but there's a difference between addressing it and changing it. These characters pointing it out to him create conflict within Dean and between Dean and these characters. Where's the angst if no one's poking at a problem?
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Yes, the lie on Dean's part I was referring to was about him not remembering Hell. Aside from his usual "I'm fine, really!" lies, the only other lie we've seen on Dean's part was the S2 secret of John telling Dean he might have to kill his brother. I don't see that as a lie by omission, because he did remember and yet he flat out said "I don't remember anything." (That's what I meant by 'protecting himself.' He couldn't talk about it, but he also wanted to protect Sam from knowing what his brother is capable of... at least from his perspective.)
Fine with agreeing to disagree. (I get that a lot, actually. ^_^) But this:
Sam and Dean's codependence keep them close to each other and therefore, keep them in conflict. Dean leaving Sam would lose that conflict.
I see the separation as the conflict, much like it was in S1's Scarecrow. It is, in fact, the codependence on Sam's part that started his more recent journey with the abilities, and I believe that it is not only his abilities, but also what he is willing to do to protect Dean, that will wind up driving Dean away.
The way I see it is this: Sam already knows about Dean's faults, but, as he stated in S3, he has started to emulate Dean - up to and including the (over)dedication. I think Sam's going to make a very bad decision here in the next couple of episodes - something he believes is for the greater good, but might be a bit more than questionable. In my ideal world, Dean leaves, and realizes that the very thing that made him leave Sam is also blatantly apparent in himself. (S1 Dean: "For you or Dad, the things I'm willing to do or kill, it just... it scares me sometimes.")
That said, if a separation does happen, I don't see them keeping it up for more than a few episodes - not a whole season, by any means. Other shows have easily followed more than one group of people - the last season and current season of Lost, for example.
Also, in a writing sense, I don't see many other directions for the 'rift' storyline to go. It has to come to a head at some point. It's going to get worse before it gets better, and aside from them royally beating the crap out of each other (which they already did) or trying to kill each other (whoops, they did that, too), it has to peak. Unless we're ramping up to some severe silent treatment/'every time they speak they're yelling at each other' scenes (both of which seem fairly anticlimactic), a separation is the only direction I can really see it going.
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What about a separation as the fallout from a bad choice, either by Sam or Dean. Not in the sense that Dean or Sam leave as a result, but in the sense of injury/coma or even something like mental breakdown/insanity or just leaving like Dean did by going into the past or fighting on another plain like both boys did in the spirit world.
Given the "coming next" clips we saw at the end of this week's ep, Sam's gonna keep using his powers and Dean's gonna keep following angels' orders...despite the warnings both of them got from Pamela and Tessa. Perhaps we'll see the fallout from those decisions as a separation caused by an outside force, not a conscious decision.
Sorry, I just can't see either boy leaving the other with everything coming to a head apocalypse-wise when their strongest motivations are to protect each other, in spite of the other.
Of course, now we're debating stuff that neither of us has any fore-knowledge or control over, but still. It's fun to guess.
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I like that idea quite a bit, actually, especially in the light of Pamela's death. She didn't want to die, and she didn't want any part of the apocalypse. But Sam and Dean don't want any part of the apocalypse, either... and that's getting into thinky-thoughts that I don't think I can process right now. O_O
And speculation is half the reason I love fandom, especially opposing speculations... because it usually either winds up with nobody being right or everyone being right. :)
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Sam
1. Protect Dean, whether it costs Sam anything or not.
2. Kill Lilith/stop apocalypse, as part of 1.
Dean
1. Save Sam, whether it costs Dean anything or not.
2. Try to recover from Hell.
I really don't see these goals as being accurate. I'll easily admit to being more for Dean than Sam, but I do love Sammy to bits and I love the brothers' relationship even more. That said, I really can't see what you've listed as their top priorities - especially in regards to Sam.
IMHO, Sam's top priority right now is revenge on Lilith, with a side of wanting to stop the apocalypse and return as many demons to Hell as he can. Included subconsciously I imagine is also a goal of increasing his powers to the best of his abilities, to ensure that he's never in a position like he was in the season three finale. All of this spurs from Dean's death, but it seems to me that Sam's focus has shifted beyond Dean-his-brother to more like Dean-as-a-concept, like a figurehead or a static image, something to drive Sam forward, but not something he really relates to anymore.
Keeping Dean safe isn't really a priority to me, not at this point. It's more of a side benefit from accomplishing the above. In other words, it's not keeping Dean safe by killing Lilith/saving the world/using his powers, it's the reverse. I certainly think Sam wants Dean to be safe and alive, don't get me wrong; Sam loves his brother and I hope that never, ever changes, but I don't think things are nearly as simple as they once were and that includes Sam and his take on Dean.
Sam has had to learn to cope without Dean before and had to rely on a preternatural creature's whims to get Dean back. He spent months in the Trickster's fake world and the Sam we saw then was incredibly dark and despairing. We saw him revert to the same sort of personality when Dean was in Hell, but he didn't snap back out of it again. I think it's a once bitten, twice shy sort of deal - he can't open up to Dean again, not fully, not like he once did, because how could he survive losing him a third time?
So Sam isn't opening up to Dean, but that isn't stopping him from concentrating on other factors - see again Lilith, the seals, and advancing his powers.
The problem with all of this is that for Dean, Sam's lack of trust and confidence is probably the cruelest thing he could do. Dean is (or maybe, was) incredibly co-dependent on Sam and I can't think of anyone whose opinions on Dean and what Dean can do matter more.
Sam saying that Dean is holding him back, that Dean isn't strong enough, smart enough, good enough to stick with Sam? And worse, when Dean is obviously suffering the aftershocks of Hell and what he did there, Sam's callous dismissal of it basically says that not only is there no solace to be found in Sam (despite Sam having pushed Dean to open up about Hell, repeatedly), but that what Dean had already revealed was going to be used as a weapon against him. There's nothing Sam could have done to hurt Dean more.
And that is why so many of the Dean girls want the brothers to take a break. One, because Sam seems to unconsciously be pushing for it (combination of not wanting to see Dean hurt again and having grown used to being a lone wolf), and two, because Dean needs some stability and a chance to recover from Hell and find his footing again - and he's obviously not getting that with Sam.
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I don't think things are nearly as simple as they once were and that includes Sam and his take on Dean.
Ah, but that's exactly my point. Sam is a much more withdrawn and complex creature to figure out than he was back at Season 1 when was sharing and caring. Sam keeps everything close to the vest, including his emotions, but as you stated, the reasons for his actions all stem back to losing Dean and not wanting to go through that again.
I think that this has been the case since after the Groundhog Day, not since after Dean's deal coming due. After all, Sam was willing to sacrifice a virgin post Groundhog Day. I don't think his motive in that was anything but saving Dean.
As for Sam's perspective on Dean as a concept, I don't necessarily agree. I think that Sam's desire to protect Dean is showing itself in the same way that Dean's desire to protect Sam did. Dean protected Sam by taking the risks and taking charge. Sam is trying to do the same now, and it's resulting in a power struggle.
Dean wants Sam to stop using his powers so that Sam will be safe. He's frustrated with Sam for not doing that.
Sam wants Dean to take a back seat in the fight to get Lilith and stop the apocalypse. Why? Lilith can take Dean out with one burst of flashy white power. Sam knows he's safe from that, but he can't protect Dean from it if Dean is fighting right beside him. What if on Halloween Sam hadn't taken point and gone after Samhain? What if he'd given in to Dean and stayed behind to protect the kids? Dean would've been blown away by Samhain. Maybe the angels would've brought him back again, but Sam can't put Dean's life at risk on that maybe. He also can't risk that Dean might go back to hell, even for a short time, until the angels got around to resurrecting him. It's never been stated whether or not Dean's safe from Lilith's deal now that Castiel retrieved him. He could be going right back down again on his next death.
Sam saying that Dean is holding him back, that Dean isn't strong enough, smart enough, good enough to stick with Sam?
Dean *is* holding Sam back. He's admitted it many times. He doesn't want Sam risking his life on hunts and he doesn't want Sam risking his soul by using his demon powers. He wants to continue to hold Sam back. Sam's frustrated by this just as Dean's frustrated by Sam's fighting against being held back.
Sam never said Dean isn't good enough to stick with Sam. He said that he's the stronger hunter because Dean is scared of going up against the demons Sam wants to fight. Again, true. Not nice. Not anything Sam would say if he wasn't being influenced, but like Tessa said, humans lie to themselves, and like Dean said to Cole we're all scared. Dean has been to hell. It's still just a concept to Sam.
Dean needs some stability and a chance to recover from Hell and find his footing again - and he's obviously not getting that with Sam.
Dude, Dean needs time, I agree. I just don't think Sam is the problem with that. If he splits from Sam, he's still got angels and demons after him to get involved. He probably could have split from Sam prior to the angels coming out of the woodwork, but now he's got some powerful entities pushing him just as much as the demons have been pushing Sam since Azazel first killed Jess.
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Ah, but that's exactly my point. Sam is a much more withdrawn and complex creature to figure out than he was back at Season 1 when was sharing and caring.
Someone made the point that the Sam we're seeing now (darker, somewhat more selfish, less inclined to want to discuss feelings or care about other people's opinions) is less a new Sam as it is a reversion to the pre-series!Sam, who we saw flashes of in season 1 but who was mostly subsumed in a deserve to avenge Jessica. This being the Sam who left Dean and John behind to pursue 'normal', the Sam who didn't bother to call or check in for at least two years (given the interactions between Sam and Dean in the pilot, the whole "I haven't asked you for anything for two years" and all that, it really implies to me that this was Sam's choice, not Dean's). Point being that Sam has always had this hint of aloofness running through him and an ability to leave his family that we haven't seen from John or Dean.
Which isn't to say that Sam doesn't love his family, he does, heartbreakingly, and many of his actions are flavored out of consideration for them, but Sam is the one we consistently see moving to stand alone, even if it means leaving others potentially vulnerable. He left Dean in Scarecrow (though he did immediately come back when he realized Dean was in trouble), he left again in Hunted (if I'm remembering my episodes right), both times entirely of his own free will. And he's been leaving in the fourth season repeatedly as well, sneaking out in the night to do his thing with Ruby, not even bothering to tell Dean that he's on his own.
Then the thing with the Siren - when he talked about Dean holding him back (and more on your comments on this in a bit because I really liked them), it highlighted that Sam doesn't want Dean around. And honestly, I could put a lot more faith in Sam's actions towards protecting Dean if I got a hint that he was concerned about Dean's general well being as a whole. But from the start of season four, we really haven't had that sort of connection; we had The Hug, but Sam, having miraculously had his brother returned to him, lied by omission to Dean in the very same scene, then outright lied later on and, rather than spending any stretch of time making sure Dean was actually okay (Dean never being one to actually admit to having any problems), Sam left him alone, while Dean was asleep, no less. And that was just in 4x01; his actions haven't been any more seemingly concerned throughout the entire season; even when he asks Dean about Hell, it's almost like something he's throwing in Dean's face to get him to stop asking about Sam's use of his powers.
All of this suggests that Dean's safety isn't tantamount to Sam. It's right up there, but it's not his main, driving goal. Sam can say that it is, and I think it once was, but it feels more like a white lie he's telling himself to feel better about what he's really doing, which is the same thing that Pamela told him off for.
I think that Sam's desire to protect Dean is showing itself in the same way that Dean's desire to protect Sam did. Dean protected Sam by taking the risks and taking charge. Sam is trying to do the same now, and it's resulting in a power struggle.
This is a concept that I really like, but its not one that I can fully get behind. Sam isn't treating Dean like someone who needs protection, he's treating him like a sidekick. I blame Sam's long stint alone for this; for the first time, Sam called all the shots in regards to hunting, and furthermore, he had Ruby falling his orders like a good little soldier. I think he got used to being fully in command and very, very much unused to people questioning his decisions.
(And apparently because I'm far, far too wordy for my own good, this has to be broken into two parts. Seriously, I wouldn't blame you at all if you TLDR me as a result.)
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Or perhaps this is a case where we're both right; Sam thinks he knows best, so he expects Dean to follow his lead and by doing so, Sam will be able to keep Dean safe. However, the way he's doing this is belittling and dismissive.
What if on Halloween Sam hadn't taken point and gone after Samhain? What if he'd given in to Dean and stayed behind to protect the kids?
My point here is that Sam didn't bother to try anything else. He knew what he had to do and went with it, whole-heartedly. He didn't even bother to see what, if any, other options were available and if nothing else, they had two angels in reserve that could have been called on for back up. But Sam didn't even think - he went with his gut, which was to use his powers - breaking his promise to Dean and acting against the explicit warning of the angels in the process.
I do agree though that Sam went after Samhain because he viewed it as the greater threat, the one that he, Sam, was better equipped to handle. And in that, yes, he was acting to protect Dean.
Sam never said Dean isn't good enough to stick with Sam.
No, but he sure implied it a lot. First he removed Dean's need to stay with Sam (by besmirching Dean's skills as a hunter), then he implies that Sam doesn't want Dean around (because Dean is holding him back and Sam can accomplish more without him). It's not that he's saying that Sam is being forced to protect Sam; the undercurrent is that Sam wants Dean away so that Sam can go off and get the job done. I think he only meant as a temporary measure, that he'd like Dean packed off somewhere nice and safe while Sam defeats Lilith, but he didn't say that and I highly doubt that's what Dean heard.
Dean *is* holding Sam back.
Oh, absolutely Dean is holding Sam back. Dean would do just about anything to protect Sam, including going back to Hell, and it's not like he's limiting his protection to Sam's physical body. Dean, more than anyone, has reason to understand why it's important to keep your soul in a good standing; as you mentioned, Sam doesn't and can't get that, having never experienced Hell before.
This is perhaps Dean's biggest failing, in that he's never been able to articulate to Sam why he has such a problem with what Sam's doing. I think he could have done it earlier, but the method he selected (the whole 'if I didn't know you, I'd want to hunt you' thing) came off as black and white, with Dean refuses to even consider, or look at, any possible benefits that the powers could bring. Sam was right to retort that his powers meant that demonic victims occasionally survived; Dean, however, should have responded with "and this is why we have exorcisms" but did not, thus weakening his argument and making him seem petty, which he's not. Dean has many reasons to be distrustful of Sam's powers, but he could have brought them up before but didn't, and now, well, Sam's not exactly listening.
He probably could have split from Sam prior to the angels coming out of the woodwork, but now he's got some powerful entities pushing him just as much as the demons have been pushing Sam since Azazel first killed Jess.
I'm not quite sure what you meant by this, so I'll have to ask for clarification. Dean wouldn't have left Sam before the angels introduced themselves; he's only been driven to that point, imho, following S&V, and it's only now that I could see it being at all a good idea. I don't think canon would go for it, but I do believe it would allow Dean a chance to ground himself, and that's something he's needed for a while.
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I do blame him for not apologizing. He said hurtful things too, and he was the one who brought the damn thing back to their hotel room and restrained Sam, making Sam vulnerable to the siren's spit attack - if Sam needs to be sorry for what he said under the siren's influence, Dean does too. And Sam's apology didn't ring false with me - the one at the end of 4.14 felt like he didn't know where to begin and the one at the beginning of 4.15 felt like he's said it several times and he knows Dean won't believe it this time either. If I were Sam I wouldn't want to confide my secrets - dark secret I'm probably at least in part ashamed of - to someone who isn't acknowledging he's hurt me even when I acknowledge I've hurt him.
Dean has a superiority complex too, and he's had it for a long time - calling Sam selfish, deciding what's best for them (like making the deal even though Sam wouldn't want him to and even though Dean, thanks to John's deal, knows what it's like to go through knowing someone you love is in Hell because of you), dismissing the times Sam disagrees with him as Sam being selfish or under the influence of the dark side, etc. In Scarecrow Dean basically called Sam a bad son, which turned out to be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back (which is why Sam left in that episode).
I don't mean to make it sound like I think Dean is all bad and Sam is completely blameless - they both have an equal share of the blame. That's why I hope whether they just stick to the emotional distance or add physical distance they both come together and apologize to each other instead of Sam groveling to get his brother back.
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