"However consider the message this sends to those who lived within their means and paid (or are paying) off their debts."
You have a false dichotomy there. It requires the assumption that both parties have the same start and equal opportunities, that person A is somehow irresponsible while person B is responsible, this however does not follow in real life, where people have different starts, and different opportunities, person A may be merely screwed by an issue person B doesn't have.
Responsibility isn't the issue, it's the belief that people who need help are automatically irresponsible that is the problem. If person B doesn't need help, great for them, but it doesn't mean they're automatically a better person and more responsible than person A.
You have a false dichotomy there. It requires the assumption that both parties have the same start and equal opportunities...
I disagree. If you start from the assertion (as stated in the OP) that success is largly a matter of outlook/will, starting position and opprotunities are secondary to what you do with them.
If a smart kid is born in a poor neighborhood with substandard schools and with parent(s) who don't value education, does that kid have the same shot as a similarly smart kid in the suburbs with good schools and parents who value education?
Oh boy, the whole government as protector thing. It has been argued that Canada is a nanny state. Our government provides excellent social programs. But that doesn't mean that we're not still behaving like adults. Just because they are there does not mean everyone is using them. We still get up and go to work, we pay our bills, we live responsibly, we just know there is a safety net there if we fall. And that is a good thing. Look at our housing market, it barely dipped at all during the past 2 years, especially in comparison to the US
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Part of me would like to see one or two states secede from the US so all the hardcore libertarian and conservative types could move there and remove all the social progress we've achieved over the last two centuries. I doubt they would be happy with the outcome once consumer and worker protections were out the door. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be a good experiment since some of the major progressive social changes can't be easily reversed (civil rights, women's suffrage, abolition of slavery, etc). Still, I think the dialogue would change pretty quick when they got a taste of libertopia.
Look how low my self worth is!sealwhiskersNovember 3 2011, 00:08:42 UTC
I think the conservatives who claim this type of statement have fundamental misunderstanding of the progressive ideology in general (as opposed to individuals
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Some anvils need to be dropped...sandwichwarriorNovember 3 2011, 02:47:27 UTC
I actually agree with most of what you're saying here, and I never amde any special claims to being original or clever.
That said I've seen enough examples on this forum in the last month of people "talking past each other" each other that I felt it had to be said.
As pani said "we're forgetting that the other side is human to" and as such I endevoured to put a human face on all those horrible people who oppose the righteous cause.
Re: Some anvils need to be dropped...sealwhiskersNovember 3 2011, 03:17:17 UTC
Sorry sandwich, but I don't truly believe you agree with most of what I'm saying, you're probably a decent sort and all, but your whole post up there (I could quote phrase after phrase) shows that you really *don't* understand the progressive idea and what lies behind it. Just like Panookah didn't in his post.
I've tried to put it in blunt text..but it's like talking to someone who's singing lalala progressives don't think people can cope on their own, lalala, progressives don't understand our independence, lalala, progressives are jealous of the rich, lalala progressives imply weakness in people and encourage sissies, lalala..
I mean it's written *right there* Sandwichwarrior. You actually *don't* agree with me at all. And I have to wonder if you don't even read what I or others wrote, or if it truly is that you simply don't *get* the progressive idea.
Like wise the whole concept of the government as a protector/parent is predicated on the idea that the majority of citizens are unable to function as an adults.
People are stupid. The less their stupidity can ruin it for the rest of us, the better.
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"However consider the message this sends to those who lived within their means and paid (or are paying) off their debts."
You have a false dichotomy there. It requires the assumption that both parties have the same start and equal opportunities, that person A is somehow irresponsible while person B is responsible, this however does not follow in real life, where people have different starts, and different opportunities, person A may be merely screwed by an issue person B doesn't have.
Responsibility isn't the issue, it's the belief that people who need help are automatically irresponsible that is the problem. If person B doesn't need help, great for them, but it doesn't mean they're automatically a better person and more responsible than person A.
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I disagree. If you start from the assertion (as stated in the OP) that success is largly a matter of outlook/will, starting position and opprotunities are secondary to what you do with them.
Everthing else follows naturaly from this.
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I'll tell that to my five plus disabilities shall I then? Clearly if I just apply a bit of outlook and will, I can bootstrap my way out of them.
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That said I've seen enough examples on this forum in the last month of people "talking past each other" each other that I felt it had to be said.
As pani said "we're forgetting that the other side is human to" and as such I endevoured to put a human face on all those horrible people who oppose the righteous cause.
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I've tried to put it in blunt text..but it's like talking to someone who's singing lalala progressives don't think people can cope on their own, lalala, progressives don't understand our independence, lalala, progressives are jealous of the rich, lalala progressives imply weakness in people and encourage sissies, lalala..
I mean it's written *right there* Sandwichwarrior. You actually *don't* agree with me at all. And I have to wonder if you don't even read what I or others wrote, or if it truly is that you simply don't *get* the progressive idea.
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People are stupid. The less their stupidity can ruin it for the rest of us, the better.
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