"However consider the message this sends to those who lived within their means and paid (or are paying) off their debts."
You have a false dichotomy there. It requires the assumption that both parties have the same start and equal opportunities, that person A is somehow irresponsible while person B is responsible, this however does not follow in real life, where people have different starts, and different opportunities, person A may be merely screwed by an issue person B doesn't have.
Responsibility isn't the issue, it's the belief that people who need help are automatically irresponsible that is the problem. If person B doesn't need help, great for them, but it doesn't mean they're automatically a better person and more responsible than person A.
You have a false dichotomy there. It requires the assumption that both parties have the same start and equal opportunities...
I disagree. If you start from the assertion (as stated in the OP) that success is largly a matter of outlook/will, starting position and opprotunities are secondary to what you do with them.
If a smart kid is born in a poor neighborhood with substandard schools and with parent(s) who don't value education, does that kid have the same shot as a similarly smart kid in the suburbs with good schools and parents who value education?
Re: you'll hate me but...yes_justiceNovember 3 2011, 01:54:13 UTC
I took it to mean disabilities influence people differently and all the positive outlook and will in the world cannot alter those realities. A negative outlook will make them worse, granted, but a positive outlook isn't a cure all.
Re: you'll hate me but...sandwichwarriorNovember 3 2011, 02:21:33 UTC
I should/could have phrased my reply better.
My line of think was something like "what is it about your disabilities that prevents you from being successful?" because barring something specific (like wanting to me an Olympic-class runner) the answer to her initial question would be "yes".
Re: you'll hate me but...lilenthNovember 3 2011, 12:54:32 UTC
It is not my disabilities so much but the stigma and bigotry of others.
Once I was kicked off a course despite having a perfect safety record, apparently the disabled person whose never even scraped her knuckles and who was top in her class and so advanced that the teacher let her do things the others weren't allowed to do is an insurance risk while able bodied common sense challenged teens who lark around with giant band-saws and who did required first aid due to their own lack of sense aren't.
Re: you'll hate me but...johnny9fingersNovember 3 2011, 17:48:42 UTC
However, what is it about my being born luckier than you, and wealthier than you because of that luck, which means that I'm more successful than you, in your own definition?
Every time I look in the mirror I see a chap who lives in a $1M townhouse, with a small private income, expensive hobbies, staff, a child about to go to private school, and a pretty easy life which I haven't worked for at all.
But I'm successful; I've bred; my genes continue, and with luck, my kids will go to the finest schools on this planet….and might not have to lift a finger for all of that, either.
No, life isn't fair, and folk like you keep it that way, just as much as folk like me. It's just that it will take a calamity for me to lose what I have, and a miracle for you to get to where I am.
Re: you'll hate me but...sealwhiskersNovember 3 2011, 01:57:16 UTC
That's a big assumption. I think what most people who say things like this are trying to have you understand is that they *are* trying and they *have* tried and done things, but that harsh circumstances contribute to failure on *a whole other scale* rather than lack of self worth, or lack of trying.
The disabled people I know are all valuable parts of society, my blind friend works, but she got a little help in the start, otherwise I think the picture would have been different due to a number of factors that you don't take into consideration in your equation here. As it is now, she is a highly productive citizen.
Re: you'll hate me but...sealwhiskersNovember 3 2011, 03:03:04 UTC
The definition of successful is of course not unimportant in this theme, but, it is still untrue (like Fabiani said) that the most earnest of "yeses" would guarantee success, or lack of misery/failure for that matter.
"However consider the message this sends to those who lived within their means and paid (or are paying) off their debts."
You have a false dichotomy there. It requires the assumption that both parties have the same start and equal opportunities, that person A is somehow irresponsible while person B is responsible, this however does not follow in real life, where people have different starts, and different opportunities, person A may be merely screwed by an issue person B doesn't have.
Responsibility isn't the issue, it's the belief that people who need help are automatically irresponsible that is the problem. If person B doesn't need help, great for them, but it doesn't mean they're automatically a better person and more responsible than person A.
Reply
I disagree. If you start from the assertion (as stated in the OP) that success is largly a matter of outlook/will, starting position and opprotunities are secondary to what you do with them.
Everthing else follows naturaly from this.
Reply
Reply
I'll tell that to my five plus disabilities shall I then? Clearly if I just apply a bit of outlook and will, I can bootstrap my way out of them.
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
My line of think was something like "what is it about your disabilities that prevents you from being successful?" because barring something specific (like wanting to me an Olympic-class runner) the answer to her initial question would be "yes".
Reply
It is not my disabilities so much but the stigma and bigotry of others.
Once I was kicked off a course despite having a perfect safety record, apparently the disabled person whose never even scraped her knuckles and who was top in her class and so advanced that the teacher let her do things the others weren't allowed to do is an insurance risk while able bodied common sense challenged teens who lark around with giant band-saws and who did required first aid due to their own lack of sense aren't.
Reply
Write angry letters to the administrator and the insurance company, show up to class anyway, pick a fight and win.
Reply
Every time I look in the mirror I see a chap who lives in a $1M townhouse, with a small private income, expensive hobbies, staff, a child about to go to private school, and a pretty easy life which I haven't worked for at all.
But I'm successful; I've bred; my genes continue, and with luck, my kids will go to the finest schools on this planet….and might not have to lift a finger for all of that, either.
No, life isn't fair, and folk like you keep it that way, just as much as folk like me. It's just that it will take a calamity for me to lose what I have, and a miracle for you to get to where I am.
Reply
The disabled people I know are all valuable parts of society, my blind friend works, but she got a little help in the start, otherwise I think the picture would have been different due to a number of factors that you don't take into consideration in your equation here. As it is now, she is a highly productive citizen.
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment