Look how low my self worth is!sealwhiskersNovember 3 2011, 00:08:42 UTC
I think the conservatives who claim this type of statement have fundamental misunderstanding of the progressive ideology in general (as opposed to individuals
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Some anvils need to be dropped...sandwichwarriorNovember 3 2011, 02:47:27 UTC
I actually agree with most of what you're saying here, and I never amde any special claims to being original or clever.
That said I've seen enough examples on this forum in the last month of people "talking past each other" each other that I felt it had to be said.
As pani said "we're forgetting that the other side is human to" and as such I endevoured to put a human face on all those horrible people who oppose the righteous cause.
Re: Some anvils need to be dropped...sealwhiskersNovember 3 2011, 03:17:17 UTC
Sorry sandwich, but I don't truly believe you agree with most of what I'm saying, you're probably a decent sort and all, but your whole post up there (I could quote phrase after phrase) shows that you really *don't* understand the progressive idea and what lies behind it. Just like Panookah didn't in his post.
I've tried to put it in blunt text..but it's like talking to someone who's singing lalala progressives don't think people can cope on their own, lalala, progressives don't understand our independence, lalala, progressives are jealous of the rich, lalala progressives imply weakness in people and encourage sissies, lalala..
I mean it's written *right there* Sandwichwarrior. You actually *don't* agree with me at all. And I have to wonder if you don't even read what I or others wrote, or if it truly is that you simply don't *get* the progressive idea.
Re: Some anvils need to be dropped...sealwhiskersNovember 3 2011, 17:09:48 UTC
I started to go through all the sentences in the original post that don't agree at all with what I'm saying, such as "When you say that the government needs to solve problem X or bail-out/support group Y there is an underlying implication/assumption that the people involved are incapable of solving the problem or helping themselves" and yeah..I'm afraid I went boink a bit.
I'm starting to believe there is no point in explaining the progressive position anymore. The prejudice is just too mighty. :/
ETA, obviously it is worse when the misconceptions come from reasonable conservatives who *seem* to have the ability to get it. I don't much engage with other types.
Re: Some anvils need to be dropped...sealwhiskersNovember 3 2011, 17:31:59 UTC
oh of course it goes both ways in general (and I give examples of equivalent behavior of the other side), but in this *specific* matter I have really tried to communicate that I *don't* attribute personal qualities to members of political factions (and other similar mistakes), and yet here we are...
Re: Some anvils need to be dropped...sealwhiskersNovember 4 2011, 22:56:36 UTC
Well, I'm sure this is true too...but I can't help noticing the difference being that I am not creating big written opinion pieces about the nature/culture/personal traits of conservatives vs. progressives.
I would never roll like that. About ideas and procedures possibly, but that's a whole other matter - which is part of the whole point I've been trying to make. But it does sound like I'm trying to defend myself, so I'll stop, since this has long past its due date.
Re: Some anvils need to be dropped...sandwichwarriorNovember 3 2011, 18:51:16 UTC
Allow me to clarify, I do not disagree with anything you said in the opening reply.
My understanding of "what progressive ideology is" is based simply on the arguments and comments posted by self-identified progressives and the policies they vote for. I make no claim to being a mind reader.
Therein lies the problem.
Try to think not about how your arguments sound in your head, but how they will be interpereted by others who do not neccesarily share your worldview.
Re: Look how low my self worth is!gunslngerNovember 3 2011, 21:35:21 UTC
Personal responsibility is taken by the majority of individuals every day
I don't think there's actual evidence of this assumption. My experience and observation shows exactly the opposite. Think of how often people say "X made me do Y" or "I can't stop smoking, I'm addicted" or something similar.
Re: Look how low my self worth is!sealwhiskersNovember 4 2011, 04:46:48 UTC
Inclinations are actually that your observations are anomalies in days and lives filled with personal responsibility on actions that aren't even reflected upon, but nevertheless happen all the time, like breathing.
Re: Look how low my self worth is!gunslngerNovember 4 2011, 08:26:10 UTC
personal responsibility on actions that aren't even reflected upon, but nevertheless happen all the time, like breathing.
That's a horrible example for the point you're trying to make. That's not an action you can choose to take responsibility for as it's done by your unconscious. Regardless, whether you believe it or not, I've observed that most people every day state something in a way that doesn't take personal responsibility.
Re: Look how low my self worth is!sealwhiskersNovember 4 2011, 09:34:47 UTC
lordy, I am *not* talking about subconscious actions, I am talking about the human actions of making decisions and learning from mistakes. I thought that was obvious. Your observations sound extremely odd to me.
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That said I've seen enough examples on this forum in the last month of people "talking past each other" each other that I felt it had to be said.
As pani said "we're forgetting that the other side is human to" and as such I endevoured to put a human face on all those horrible people who oppose the righteous cause.
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I've tried to put it in blunt text..but it's like talking to someone who's singing lalala progressives don't think people can cope on their own, lalala, progressives don't understand our independence, lalala, progressives are jealous of the rich, lalala progressives imply weakness in people and encourage sissies, lalala..
I mean it's written *right there* Sandwichwarrior. You actually *don't* agree with me at all. And I have to wonder if you don't even read what I or others wrote, or if it truly is that you simply don't *get* the progressive idea.
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I'm starting to believe there is no point in explaining the progressive position anymore. The prejudice is just too mighty. :/
ETA, obviously it is worse when the misconceptions come from reasonable conservatives who *seem* to have the ability to get it. I don't much engage with other types.
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My impression is that this goes both ways. And I'm saying this as a Partisan Hack(tm)* so this must mean something.
*been called so by partisan hacks on the Otherside(tm)
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(long discussion 2 days ago in Panooka's lj)
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I think she means you!
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That may be so.
But in regards to the specifics to this debate, wherein personality traits are plastered upon members of ideologies I do claim innocence.
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And yes, I recognize your innocence in the second part.
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I would never roll like that. About ideas and procedures possibly, but that's a whole other matter - which is part of the whole point I've been trying to make. But it does sound like I'm trying to defend myself, so I'll stop, since this has long past its due date.
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My understanding of "what progressive ideology is" is based simply on the arguments and comments posted by self-identified progressives and the policies they vote for. I make no claim to being a mind reader.
Therein lies the problem.
Try to think not about how your arguments sound in your head, but how they will be interpereted by others who do not neccesarily share your worldview.
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I don't think there's actual evidence of this assumption. My experience and observation shows exactly the opposite. Think of how often people say "X made me do Y" or "I can't stop smoking, I'm addicted" or something similar.
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That's a horrible example for the point you're trying to make. That's not an action you can choose to take responsibility for as it's done by your unconscious. Regardless, whether you believe it or not, I've observed that most people every day state something in a way that doesn't take personal responsibility.
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