The un?official policy of Trek's writers has pretty much always been that interspecies relationships (and interspecies breeding) is no big deal. I don't know why we don't see more half-Vulcans in the 'verse. It's possible that by the late 24th Century there are a lot of half-Vulcans in the primeverse and we just Doylistically never see them to preserve the specialness of Spock.
Cultural taboos and religions differences probably account for a lot of them - Vulcans seem to go for arranged marriages young. (Maybe because they think love matches are illogical.) I also think that life expectancy is a good reason for Vulcans to not want to pair up with their fellow Federation citizens. Even in Prime-verse, Sarek outlived Amanda by many years, and Vulcans may not want to have to face that.
Vulcan arranged marriages are to deal with the offset of Ponn Farr, if you know there is a chance your son as an adult is going to die if he is not wed then why leave it to chance, find him a mate as early as possible
( ... )
well, yalegirl03 has a story about 'mail order brides' where the Vulcans are doing just that. and there was another story out there set in the reboot where Vulcans were getting a rep for being violent and suddenly going into pon farr because of the genocide. the name escapes me. but yeah, in reboot, it makes sense for me.
in tos, obviously there wouldn't be the urgency of having to do that and perhaps marrying out would take place at a slower rate because Vulcans are so culturally conservative, etc.
yeah, i thought of that, but i'm pretty sure i haven't read her story and that it's a different one i'm thinking of that was posted a while ago in the comm.
there was a scene of some Vulcan scientist that had forcibly melded with another scientist on some planet. i think he'd killed her too? maybe it *is* startrekwriter. idk lol
I think it's important to note that Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have said that the "10,000 survivors" refers only to planet-side Vulcans. There hasn't been a consensus released (as of this writing, anyway) for how many Vulcan off-worlders survived.
So, if you take the idea that there are definitely more than 10,000 Vulcans out there in the universe, and combine it with the knowledge of the Vulcan tendency to be extremely insular, it's easy to understand why more fic writers haven't thought that cross-species mating is an acceptable (to Vulcans in general) option for "improving genetic diversity."
That said, the issue is a cornerstone of one of mt Trek 'verses and is explored in a more in depth manner in a companion piece/sequel to my Don't Lose Your Compass -- 'cause I like the idea of more half-Vulcans existing out there.
I wondered about the whole "10,000 Vulcans" thing, because it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't have colonies. I will definitely check out your fic, cause I like the idea of more half-Vulcans, too.
There's a sequel to that one, as well. However, there might be a bit of a wait because, although it's mostly finished, I won't be posting it until I'm at least half way through Entanglement.
My own personal canon (hee!) states that since Vulcan was a outgoing, space faring planet with lots of business trading and scientific exchange, that there are up to 100-300K more Vulcans milling about the Federation, possibly up to a million. Even for the most insular of societies, people must trade and must exchange.
Of a planet wide population of 6 million, that's barely one percent of one percent of one percent. But think of all the Vulcan scientists, engineers, keevas salespeople, bankers, traders, teachers, medics, farmers ( especially since Vulcan was a desert world with a high population and a right for life, they could possibly need to import food) mechanics and others, and never mind the priesthood to serve all those people, and it is possible in fanfic to postulate more Vulcans hanging out.
BLOOD FEVER! That ep of Voyager has been my go-to for my own Spock/Uhura pon farr thoughts for some time. Also the one where Tuvok goes through his pon farr. But I digress.
re: Vulcan feelings on interspecies bonding
I doubt it would ever be so simple as, "Well, there are only 10k of us left so we'd better branch out!" What they show of the way people treated Spock indicates a very deeply-rooted issue in Vulcan society not least BECAUSE of how immediately Vulcan he seems on most every level. (Though, I wouldn't necessarily assume Vulcan genetic dominance based on Spock since some stuff holds that science/genetic engineering had a lot to do with his creation/biological make up.) They can perceive humanity in him despite how Vulcan he looks/acts and he's ostracized because of it. Prejudice just isn't rational and it's not going to go away because of a catastrophe. In fact, many cultures that end up diaspora'd become MORE insular and turn MORE inward in an attempt to preserve the integrity what they have left. So it becomes even MORE
( ... )
I'm new to Voyager, so I haven't seen the one where Tuvok goes through ponn farr. Do you remember the name of the episode?
BTW, those are very interesting thoughts on Vulcans becoming more insular. Prejudice isn't rational, so I guess that I figured that branching out would be the most logical course of action (sorry, I couldn't resist.) I can see Vulcans being protective of their culture, but I don't understand how they could rationalize xenophobia with the principles of logic/IDIC.
Tuvok's pon farr is a subplot in the episode "Body and Soul" waaaaay in season seven. It's actually pretty ridic so I should note that I mostly only reference it in terms of the bits of ceremony/tradition/etc. it reveals.
but I don't understand how they could rationalize xenophobia with the principles of logic/IDIC.
Well, it doesn't actually make sense! But Vulcans have always been notoriously xenophobic, insular, and conservative (in the sense that they resist change) society throughout pretty much all Trek, so they empirically already do rationalize it to themselves in some way.
I agree with you that xenophobia does not make sense. Take a look at our society.
With little more than 10,000 Vulcans around, insulation is not an option if they want to survive and strengthened their gene pool. At some point they have to put aside their prejudice.
I often wonder what the racists in our society would do if faced with the same situation? Die or procreate with members of other ethnic groups.
Okay. I have to say this.cleojonesDecember 10 2009, 03:30:38 UTC
So long as the offspring is raised with Vulcan cultural values, I would think that “marrying out” would be the best way to ensure long-term survival of the species.
There's been this general idea that the Vulcans would make an issue of continuing their species, now that Vulcan is gone. That they would occupy themselves with a will we or won't we "marry out". And I think we are thinking of them as far *too human*.
These are *Vulcans*.
...Vulcans who have alien *proven in canon* beliefs in katras, Vulcans who took to total anahiliation in prayer next to the Katric Ark.
I don't think this mating in-or-out would be an issue for them at all.
I think life would go on *logically* in these colonies. The culture, though significantly smaller would gone in much the same way it always has, with the only adjustment being size and venue.
I don't think there would be any kind of grand breeding plan at all.
I think they'll just continue being Vulcans. *shrug*
Re: Okay. I have to say this.threeb_1973December 10 2009, 03:38:38 UTC
Interesting thoughts. Catastrophic events tend to make humans stop and reassess their behavior, but maybe Vulcans wouldn't care. In one episode of TOS (The Immunity Syndrome???) an entire Vulcan ship was destroyed because their logic wouldn't allow them to believe they were being killed. I realize that it's canon, but personally I find that a bit extreme. Any species that slow to adapt probably wouldn't last very long.
Re: Okay. I have to say this.cleojonesDecember 10 2009, 03:46:48 UTC
And this is why we as humans fascinate them. We can exhibit Vulcan characteristics (violence and stoicism), but we also have survived longer as species than they predicted precisely because of our diverse, adaptable nature, which is suprising to them.
It's been implied that this is advantage we have over them.
So, yeah. You're right, with a catastrophe like this, they may not last very long.
Then again, I'm doing the same thing they did to us. *shrug*
But yeah, the whole katra part of the equation is something that's always ignored. Maybe they think an end is the logical conclusion for every race.
Re: Okay. I have to say this.teaoliDecember 10 2009, 03:43:56 UTC
I don't think there would be any kind of grand breeding plan at all.
I think they'll just continue being Vulcans. *shrug*
That might be a logical assumption if Spock had not considered resigning his commission in order to help "rebuild [his] race." (Forgive me if I've mucked up the quote -- my computer won't play the DVD just now.)
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Cultural taboos and religions differences probably account for a lot of them - Vulcans seem to go for arranged marriages young. (Maybe because they think love matches are illogical.) I also think that life expectancy is a good reason for Vulcans to not want to pair up with their fellow Federation citizens. Even in Prime-verse, Sarek outlived Amanda by many years, and Vulcans may not want to have to face that.
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in tos, obviously there wouldn't be the urgency of having to do that and perhaps marrying out would take place at a slower rate because Vulcans are so culturally conservative, etc.
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Peace,
Rotae
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there was a scene of some Vulcan scientist that had forcibly melded with another scientist on some planet. i think he'd killed her too? maybe it *is* startrekwriter. idk lol
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So, if you take the idea that there are definitely more than 10,000 Vulcans out there in the universe, and combine it with the knowledge of the Vulcan tendency to be extremely insular, it's easy to understand why more fic writers haven't thought that cross-species mating is an acceptable (to Vulcans in general) option for "improving genetic diversity."
That said, the issue is a cornerstone of one of mt Trek 'verses and is explored in a more in depth manner in a companion piece/sequel to my Don't Lose Your Compass -- 'cause I like the idea of more half-Vulcans existing out there.
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There's a sequel to that one, as well. However, there might be a bit of a wait because, although it's mostly finished, I won't be posting it until I'm at least half way through Entanglement.
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Of a planet wide population of 6 million, that's barely one percent of one percent of one percent. But think of all the Vulcan scientists, engineers, keevas salespeople, bankers, traders, teachers, medics, farmers ( especially since Vulcan was a desert world with a high population and a right for life, they could possibly need to import food) mechanics and others, and never mind the priesthood to serve all those people, and it is possible in fanfic to postulate more Vulcans hanging out.
But still, their pretty red world is gone! *sob*
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re: Vulcan feelings on interspecies bonding
I doubt it would ever be so simple as, "Well, there are only 10k of us left so we'd better branch out!" What they show of the way people treated Spock indicates a very deeply-rooted issue in Vulcan society not least BECAUSE of how immediately Vulcan he seems on most every level. (Though, I wouldn't necessarily assume Vulcan genetic dominance based on Spock since some stuff holds that science/genetic engineering had a lot to do with his creation/biological make up.) They can perceive humanity in him despite how Vulcan he looks/acts and he's ostracized because of it. Prejudice just isn't rational and it's not going to go away because of a catastrophe. In fact, many cultures that end up diaspora'd become MORE insular and turn MORE inward in an attempt to preserve the integrity what they have left. So it becomes even MORE ( ... )
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BTW, those are very interesting thoughts on Vulcans becoming more insular. Prejudice isn't rational, so I guess that I figured that branching out would be the most logical course of action (sorry, I couldn't resist.) I can see Vulcans being protective of their culture, but I don't understand how they could rationalize xenophobia with the principles of logic/IDIC.
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but I don't understand how they could rationalize xenophobia with the principles of logic/IDIC.
Well, it doesn't actually make sense! But Vulcans have always been notoriously xenophobic, insular, and conservative (in the sense that they resist change) society throughout pretty much all Trek, so they empirically already do rationalize it to themselves in some way.
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With little more than 10,000 Vulcans around, insulation is not an option if they want to survive and strengthened their gene pool. At some point they have to put aside their prejudice.
I often wonder what the racists in our society would do if faced with the same situation? Die or procreate with members of other ethnic groups.
Reply
There's been this general idea that the Vulcans would make an issue of continuing their species, now that Vulcan is gone. That they would occupy themselves with a will we or won't we "marry out". And I think we are thinking of them as far *too human*.
These are *Vulcans*.
...Vulcans who have alien *proven in canon* beliefs in katras, Vulcans who took to total anahiliation in prayer next to the Katric Ark.
I don't think this mating in-or-out would be an issue for them at all.
I think life would go on *logically* in these colonies. The culture, though significantly smaller would gone in much the same way it always has, with the only adjustment being size and venue.
I don't think there would be any kind of grand breeding plan at all.
I think they'll just continue being Vulcans. *shrug*
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It's been implied that this is advantage we have over them.
So, yeah. You're right, with a catastrophe like this, they may not last very long.
Then again, I'm doing the same thing they did to us. *shrug*
But yeah, the whole katra part of the equation is something that's always ignored. Maybe they think an end is the logical conclusion for every race.
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I think they'll just continue being Vulcans. *shrug*
That might be a logical assumption if Spock had not considered resigning his commission in order to help "rebuild [his] race." (Forgive me if I've mucked up the quote -- my computer won't play the DVD just now.)
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