Still not able to properly think this through

[shermarama]

Is there such a thing as a consulting feminist? Because I feel like I need to talk to one, on how I got to where I am, and where indeed I actually am, on gender issues. I don't spend a lot of time reading around the topic, and I'm not likely to either, but things come up where I find my experiences of being female, and of being a female that does

Comments

[juggzy]

I think the thing is - particularly with the current talk of intersectionality - to be able to recognise that, even though you may not be able to experience something, one needs to recognise what other people say of their experiences as real. To be fair, this has more relevance when the other has experiences you *can't* have e.g. when I am listening to a trans woman's experience of street abuse and name-calling, but I think it should be extendable to the situation where one *could* have had the other's experience, but just haven't

[motodraconis]

I've never had to wonder if people thought me inferior at my job for being female. Plenty of people would be quite happy to tell me so to my face.

Most of the promotions I got in the games industry I had to get by trickery - by submitting work anonymously and winning the job. Then when it was revealed to be me behind the work, if the producer didn't know me they would refuse to allow me on the team until (male) lead artists who did know me made a scene.

The point being... when my work was anonymous and assumed male, they couldn't wait to get me on board, but would change their mind when told "Moto did the work." They'd change their minds because "she's a girl, she can't have done that work by herself."

Sorry, I could write reams of such examples. I suppose the final nail in the coffin was asking a trans friend of mine if she'd noticed any change in the way people valued her work and skills since becoming visibly a female programmer. She became quite sad and said that yes, there was a marked demotion.

[lozette]

Adding my anecdata to the pile - I have never had issues getting jobs (in web dev); in fact once or twice I've had interviewers say they are glad to have a woman on the team (usually for some BS reason like they think I'd be a "calming influence" or some crapola).

But I get the crap once I've started, usually from peers. It definitely feels worse for me these days, too - not sure if that's just me becoming more intolerant of the BS, or no longer being willing to be "one of the lads" to get by, or because attitudes actually are worse. Current job is particularly awful, but I'm determined to stick it out as I need a long-term position.

[shermarama]

What sort of crap do you get, if you don't mind me asking? Direct comments, or uncomfortable assumptions, or what kind of thing?

[motodraconis]

Who knows? Maybe your upbringing was more gender neutral. From the earliest age I was constantly being told, by parents, teachers and other children, "you can't do that, you can't wear that, you can't study that, you can't be that... because you're a girl." Then you switch on the TV and media and books back up everything they've said, and you're left with no examples to build up any kind of counter-argument. Not that an 8 year old is going to have much luck arguing back at adults. This was pre-internet. No Google! All I had was the school library that was very specific on roles. (All Biggles goes to war as I recall!)

I remember vividly trying to argue to be allowed to do technical drawing at school. Even with an architect father backing me up, the school would not allow it, and their only reason was... because you're a girl. Since I got this sort of thing all the time, and got into trouble/detention and received all manner of verbal abuse when I tried to stand up against this, it's hardly a surprise I wished I'd been born a boy!

[shermarama]

The odd thing is I don't think of my parents as the type to be progressive about anything, and particularly not about gender. My mother still reminisces sometimes about enjoying education, but she stopped after A-levels because my dad said she could either go to university or marry him, so she married him. And even after the divorce, she never did much other than be a housewife

[steer]

I was a bit weirded out by the whole "lava balls" thing because, it is a little annoying when someone sits like that... but it's not really a sex thing... men do it to me... women do it occasionally if I'm not concentrating and have had a long day, I find myself doing it, because it's just kind of comfortable to slip into that position. I know it annoys some people so I consciously try not to do it -- but you know what, I'm a big guy, 188 cm 110 kg. I take up a lot of physical space and sometimes I'm not as considerate as I might be, not because (I think) I'm a bad person but because sometimes, you just lose attention and just slump. It never occurred to me that people would take offense to the extent of thinking of the behaviour as some kind of territory grab.

[steer]

I'm thinking of articles like this:
http://jezebel.com/5967972/fuck-you-dudes-who-sit-with-their-legs-spread-so-wide-that-they-take-up-two-seats-your-dick-is-not-that-big

It just weirds me out... because you know, I have been sitting on the bus and getting crosser and crosser that the guy next to me was opening his legs wider and wider and taking up more space and I have even been cross enough to "hold my ground" and endure having the guy press his legs against mine just in order that I've not lost ground. Then five minutes later I realise how completely absurd I'm being because you know what, he didn't mean anythign by it... and I've been guilty myself. But it seems lately this behaviour is inducing complete rage in some people.

[shermarama]

Interesting to hear you say that. This is one of several things I see as not necessarily anything to do with sexism, but I'm often reluctant to say so because it feels like I'm questioning people's experiences if I do. Which is why I'd like to know more about what's going on, to see if it happens to me less, or if I'm less likely to notice it, or less likely to think of it in terms of sexism, and just generally to be able to discuss things like this in a sensible way

[steer]

I'm often reluctant to say so because it feels like I'm questioning people's experiences if I do

It may well be that there are some men who do do it in an aggressive "I'm going to take up space" way but I've never encountered this and it seems you haven't ever. I just hope that I've never been interpreted as doing that because I genuinely have not. But I have behaved exactly as described in the "evil men who sit iwht their legs apart" rants.

the thing I'm most likely to notice getting evils for is sitting across from someone in a four-seat configuration

Oh yes...this entirely. It's horrible really. The kind of furtive under the table knee rearrangement on trains. It's much more socially uncomfortable IMHO. Also those "shared" armrests which are only big enough for one arm...

[katstevens]

I think the need for role models etc could be down to individual personalities - are you the sort of child who needs reassurance (from parents/peers/telly/whatever) that doing X is ok/'normal', or are you the stubborn kid who does things precisely because it is uncommon or weird, or to provoke a reaction (I was this one as a younger Kat - refusing to do ballet lessons for no other reason than that EVERY other girl in the class did them and I wanted to be SPECIAL), or are you in the zen zone where the actions/opinions of others don't influence you at all? I think it's a rare child that falls into the last category, who can resist going out and buying a Yorkie bar cos that'll show them and OH BALLS I just fell into their trap (etc).

[shermarama]

Looking back I seemed to be stubborn in that I knew what I wanted to do, or mainly not do, particularly in the case of wearing anything girly or pink, but it wasn't because I wanted to be different or provoke a reaction. I was happy doing the things that made me happy, like reading, and not bothered about doing the things I was expected to want to do, I think. I didn't particularly want to do ballet, but didn't put up any great resistance when I was made to join in, rather than being the only girl left in the classroom when everyone else was in the ballet class. I tried for a while but then they let me stop because I wasn't any good at it, or probably because there were enough of us who weren't any good at it to then justify giving us something else to do

[katstevens]

I think that counts as zen! Obviously there is middle ground between all the types I mentioned above and everyone will have had a different combination of experiences. But knowing your own mind at that age AND being able to stick to your guns in the face of peer pressure is pretty impressive, I think

[katstevens]

(Where I say 'can't remember a previous ad' I mean ads I saw on telly from the mid-80s onwards - obv there was all your 'BEER: IT'S FOR MEN, YOU KNOW' stuff before that)

[aphroditemf]

"When did I learn about the boxes

[shermarama]

This is interesting stuff. I was a pretty late starter on the puberty thing, so while a lot of my peers were at a stage of messing around with boys and make-up, it all felt kind of irrelevant to me... and then by the time it became relevant I couldn't buy women's clothes anyway, so maybe there's stages I just never really passed through along the way