First off, I just have to say that I pretty much agree with everything, and that I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who sees that Logan has a definitive purpose on the show, now more than ever.
That said, I feel the need to comment on this bit here, in regards to Logan/Veronica:
I'm starting to believe that Veronica and Logan may well not reconcile this season. It would be too quick and probably accomplish little (though I also suspect that the cliffhanger will be about them in some way). [...] I think that's what the first half of this season was doing. I have no solid idea what the second half will be, but I seriously doubt they'll get back together quickly. If at all. This season.
I do hear you on that, but I can't help but hope it's not true. If only for the fact that... I don't think a S4 order would be good for this show. You seem to have a lot more faith than I do in Rob's plan (which is good, I'm sure), but I just can't see it yet. I agree that there has been some great development, but that's just it... "some." I keep
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Also, before I forget, a bit more on why it wouldn't bother me if they were reconciled by the time 3x20 ends (and not just because they're still my OTP to beat):
_jems_ reminded me how much is packed into each episode, and that we went from Donut Run to Plan B in only 6 episodes. They can cover a lot of great ground in not so much time, and I'd much prefer that to ending the season (of a show with a very uncertain future) with them apart. I can't help it.
Oh, I know, they sure do make sparks fly quickly (and believably!) between those two when they want to! And I'm sure I'd buy a reconciliation if done right. I'm just having trouble seeing how RT could show that the relationship dynamic has changed enough in that sliver of time. If they break up in ep 12, and we only have 8 more episodes, what does that leave? Five apart and three coming back together, let's say? I would buy it and even be relieved by it (in the event of cancellation, it would be nice to know they're together in the end) but would it resolve anything between Logan and Veronica? This is the Achilles heel of creating such a credible set of emotional issues standing between them. In a novel, there'd be room to work through this stuff. On a show that teeters on the bubble, it becomes kind of excruciating.
Then again, all it might take is an intense mystery-related moment where she has to trust him completely -- and does. So who knows?
Oh, I know, they sure do make sparks fly quickly (and believably!) between those two when they want to!
And I couldn't be happier that that, at least, is something they're constantly able to pull off when necessary. A lot of it has to do with the chemistry between Kristen and Jason, but still, it's impressive.
On a show that teeters on the bubble, it becomes kind of excruciating.
UGH, tell me about it! I just hate this kind of uncertainty.
Then again, all it might take is an intense mystery-related moment where she has to trust him completely -- and does. So who knows?
I would love that scenario, I really would. That would show and accomplish SO much for the both of them as characters, not to mention be a great way to wrap up any mystery. If only.
Excellent points about the larger purpose of Logan in this show.
I think so many people have been disheartened with his role this season, but if this perspective is the one we're supposed to have, then it makes sense. He is still supposed to be there to comment on things that Veronica is doing wrong, especially when she doesn't tell Kieth everything.
At this point, I can't see the show not trying to bring them back together, but if that doesn't happen, I'd at least expect some decent friendship where Logan can still be a foil/voice of reason to some of the many situations she finds herself in (especially since Wallace is off Lord-knows-where studying to be a Mechanical Engineer.)
I could see an interim friendship like that at some point. It would be interesting to watch, certainly. Though I don't think it would last very long before we'd see either kissing or fighting. ;)
I whole-heartedly agree with your assessment of Logan's role in the show, and you articulated it far better than I EVER would have been able to. And, for the record, I loved their S2 relationship. The fumbles, in my opinion, were almost entirely due to KB's performance, not the writing or plotting (except for the denouement of the Duncan-Veronica relationship, which could have used some serious re-thinking).
It's very frustrating not knowing if there will be a S4. Because if there will be, then I sincerely hope Logan and Veronica DON'T get back together this season. Not enough time to make it satisfying. But if we aren't going to get a S4, I really, really, really need this Madison thing to NOT be the end of their relationship. And I'd accept (maybe prefer?) an ending in which they are both single, and there is some hint of a future for them. But if the series ends when everything is bleak between them and nothing has been resolved I think I'll throw a temper tantrum. Especially if they are each in new relationships that are going
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Oh, I agree, the S2 romantic storyline fumbles were largely if not wholly related to KB's performance. But I lay the blame for that as much at RT's feet as at hers. He seems to be so afraid of spoilers getting out (gee, I wonder why he'd think that would happen?) that he won't even tell his actors about important arcs. Which means they can't play them unless they intuit that things are going in that direction. KB seems to stink at this sort of intuition, whether because she's willfully blind or just clueless. But it's piss-poor producing, IMO. The larger character beats need to be spelled out for actors, they really really do. Spoiler leakage should be a minor concern, having the story PLAY right should be foremost
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If he wraps things up too neatly, he's shot himself in the foot for S4. If he doesn't, he's created an incredibly unsatisfying potential end to his beloved series. Which is why I think it'll be somewhere in between.
As much as I FEAR the thought of a messy end for Logan and Veronica, I've realized in reading your comments that I really don't want them back together by the season's end, but...I guess I don't trust RT to find the middle ground with this relationship.
Maybe it's because I am older. Maybe it's because I braved a few relationships in my life. Maybe it's because I am simply a freak. But I seem to be one of the few people who has no problem seeing LoVe reconcile at the end of THIS season without everything being neatly resolved
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Well, I'm probably older than you are. *cough* And I've had my share of relationships, including a marriage that has grown and changed as the two of us have gone through major life events together. So I fundamentally agree with you that reconciliation doesn't have to wait till every major character flaw has been resolved. And I don't think I said that - or at least, I certainly didn't mean to be saying that. (Though I know many are saying or implying just that
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And I don't think I said that - or at least, I certainly didn't mean to be saying that. (Though I know many are saying or implying just that.)
You weren't. It was more of my take on the general feeling in the fandom.
All I'm saying is that it will feel like a cheat to give Veronica the end-of-arc satisfaction (a renewed relationship) if she hasn't changed in some clear way.
Yes, but that's where I am willing to take her wanting to change in some clear way, seeing the need to change, as opposed to actually accomplishing that in one fell swoop. That's the difference that I meant and that's why I can see it happening in shorter time.
OTOH, RT has shown in the past that he can take big emotional leaps and have the audience buy into them. So that's another factor, which suggests that he can in fact pull this off.
And I am praying that you are right. :))
I do think there will be some kind of reconciliation, but I'm not going to make any guesses about the nature of that renewed connection, how much will be actual and how much
( ... )
Yes, but that's where I am willing to take her wanting to change in some clear way, seeing the need to change, as opposed to actually accomplishing that in one fell swoop. That's the difference that I meant and that's why I can see it happening in shorter time.Ah, okay. I had to reread your first comment to fully get it, but now I do. And I agree. She can open her eyes to her own issues fairly easily, and can even take some definite step toward showing him she sees the problems and is willing to work on changing (much the way I wrote her in Chemical Reactions, actually, which was the main reason I wanted to write that fic). As long as it's not a single epiphany
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I made the mistake of reading this post right before I went to bed last night. I was awake for awhile with all of these thoughts brewing. :-)
I agree with your assessment regarding Logan's role on the show. I do not believe that this is the end of Veronica and Logan. For all of the reasons you noted, there's just no way that their romantic relationship is over.
I'm starting to believe that Veronica and Logan may well not reconcile this season. It would be too quick and probably accomplish little (though I also suspect that the cliffhanger will be about them in some way).If we were already guaranteed a fourth season, I would agree with this. Actually, I would prefer this, even though a probable Piz/Veronica hook-up makes my stomach turn. I would like to see some friendly, UST-filled interaction between them for awhile as they grow as characters and eventually grow towards each other
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I made the mistake of reading this post right before I went to bed last night. I was awake for awhile with all of these thoughts brewing. :-) Oops, sorry? I've done that, god knows. In fact, that's kind of why I wrote this post. So I could write it out and stop thinking it
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No need to sorry at all. Your post just got my mind going when I should've already shut down the computer and went to bed. And I do it regularly; check lj late at night, then lie in bed wide awake thinking of comments. You'd think I would learn by now to wait until the next day.
BtVS was obviously not a teen soap, but wasn't it more thriller than mystery? It does make a difference in how much room you have to plot character arcs.BtVS was by its nature more of a thriller than mystery. But they did have season long arcs that culminated in season-ending battles with the "big bad", with a few MotWs thrown in throughout the year. The structure was similar in some ways to VM in that there was the big nemesis that Buffy had to conquer, on top of all of her other life issues
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That said, I feel the need to comment on this bit here, in regards to Logan/Veronica:
I'm starting to believe that Veronica and Logan may well not reconcile this season. It would be too quick and probably accomplish little (though I also suspect that the cliffhanger will be about them in some way). [...] I think that's what the first half of this season was doing. I have no solid idea what the second half will be, but I seriously doubt they'll get back together quickly. If at all. This season.
I do hear you on that, but I can't help but hope it's not true. If only for the fact that... I don't think a S4 order would be good for this show. You seem to have a lot more faith than I do in Rob's plan (which is good, I'm sure), but I just can't see it yet. I agree that there has been some great development, but that's just it... "some."
I keep ( ... )
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_jems_ reminded me how much is packed into each episode, and that we went from Donut Run to Plan B in only 6 episodes. They can cover a lot of great ground in not so much time, and I'd much prefer that to ending the season (of a show with a very uncertain future) with them apart. I can't help it.
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Then again, all it might take is an intense mystery-related moment where she has to trust him completely -- and does. So who knows?
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And I couldn't be happier that that, at least, is something they're constantly able to pull off when necessary. A lot of it has to do with the chemistry between Kristen and Jason, but still, it's impressive.
On a show that teeters on the bubble, it becomes kind of excruciating.
UGH, tell me about it! I just hate this kind of uncertainty.
Then again, all it might take is an intense mystery-related moment where she has to trust him completely -- and does. So who knows?
I would love that scenario, I really would. That would show and accomplish SO much for the both of them as characters, not to mention be a great way to wrap up any mystery. If only.
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I think so many people have been disheartened with his role this season, but if this perspective is the one we're supposed to have, then it makes sense. He is still supposed to be there to comment on things that Veronica is doing wrong, especially when she doesn't tell Kieth everything.
At this point, I can't see the show not trying to bring them back together, but if that doesn't happen, I'd at least expect some decent friendship where Logan can still be a foil/voice of reason to some of the many situations she finds herself in (especially since Wallace is off Lord-knows-where studying to be a Mechanical Engineer.)
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It's very frustrating not knowing if there will be a S4. Because if there will be, then I sincerely hope Logan and Veronica DON'T get back together this season. Not enough time to make it satisfying. But if we aren't going to get a S4, I really, really, really need this Madison thing to NOT be the end of their relationship. And I'd accept (maybe prefer?) an ending in which they are both single, and there is some hint of a future for them. But if the series ends when everything is bleak between them and nothing has been resolved I think I'll throw a temper tantrum. Especially if they are each in new relationships that are going ( ... )
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As much as I FEAR the thought of a messy end for Logan and Veronica, I've realized in reading your comments that I really don't want them back together by the season's end, but...I guess I don't trust RT to find the middle ground with this relationship.
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That's the crux of it, isn't it? We're ridiculously invested but we DON'T TRUST him to follow through in a truly emotionally satisfying way.
Dammit.
And yet. He might, you know.
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You weren't. It was more of my take on the general feeling in the fandom.
All I'm saying is that it will feel like a cheat to give Veronica the end-of-arc satisfaction (a renewed relationship) if she hasn't changed in some clear way.
Yes, but that's where I am willing to take her wanting to change in some clear way, seeing the need to change, as opposed to actually accomplishing that in one fell swoop. That's the difference that I meant and that's why I can see it happening in shorter time.
OTOH, RT has shown in the past that he can take big emotional leaps and have the audience buy into them. So that's another factor, which suggests that he can in fact pull this off.
And I am praying that you are right. :))
I do think there will be some kind of reconciliation, but I'm not going to make any guesses about the nature of that renewed connection, how much will be actual and how much ( ... )
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I made the mistake of reading this post right before I went to bed last night. I was awake for awhile with all of these thoughts brewing. :-)
I agree with your assessment regarding Logan's role on the show. I do not believe that this is the end of Veronica and Logan. For all of the reasons you noted, there's just no way that their romantic relationship is over.
I'm starting to believe that Veronica and Logan may well not reconcile this season. It would be too quick and probably accomplish little (though I also suspect that the cliffhanger will be about them in some way).If we were already guaranteed a fourth season, I would agree with this. Actually, I would prefer this, even though a probable Piz/Veronica hook-up makes my stomach turn. I would like to see some friendly, UST-filled interaction between them for awhile as they grow as characters and eventually grow towards each other ( ... )
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No need to sorry at all. Your post just got my mind going when I should've already shut down the computer and went to bed. And I do it regularly; check lj late at night, then lie in bed wide awake thinking of comments. You'd think I would learn by now to wait until the next day.
BtVS was obviously not a teen soap, but wasn't it more thriller than mystery? It does make a difference in how much room you have to plot character arcs.BtVS was by its nature more of a thriller than mystery. But they did have season long arcs that culminated in season-ending battles with the "big bad", with a few MotWs thrown in throughout the year. The structure was similar in some ways to VM in that there was the big nemesis that Buffy had to conquer, on top of all of her other life issues ( ... )
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