Well, I'm probably older than you are. *cough* And I've had my share of relationships, including a marriage that has grown and changed as the two of us have gone through major life events together. So I fundamentally agree with you that reconciliation doesn't have to wait till every major character flaw has been resolved. And I don't think I said that - or at least, I certainly didn't mean to be saying that. (Though I know many are saying or implying just that.)
But it's been set up with Logan's breakup speech in 3.09 (as well as things he said in 3.07 and 3.08) that he sees problems in Veronica's attitude toward him (and toward people in general) that are damaging their chances at having a healthy relationship. And within the relationship as portrayed in 3.11, he shows some clear signs of trepidation. And it's clear that he'll be badly hurt by V running away (again). To me, it's not about realism here, nor even about psychological truth, as much as it is about paying off what you set up. IOW, I'm now looking at story as a writer might (funny, I am a writer, hmm...) All I'm saying is that it will feel like a cheat to give Veronica the end-of-arc satisfaction (a renewed relationship) if she hasn't changed in some clear way. Because that's the character arc that has been set into motion. It needs a proper build and resolution, and I'm being cautious by questioning whether it will have time to complete itself in eight episodes. OTOH, RT has shown in the past that he can take big emotional leaps and have the audience buy into them. So that's another factor, which suggests that he can in fact pull this off.
I'm not being definitive here on either side of this end-of-season issue. It's more that I used to feel definitively that they WOULD get back together by or in 3.20 and now I'm not so sure. I do think there will be some kind of reconciliation, but I'm not going to make any guesses about the nature of that renewed connection, how much will be actual and how much suggested.
And I don't think I said that - or at least, I certainly didn't mean to be saying that. (Though I know many are saying or implying just that.)
You weren't. It was more of my take on the general feeling in the fandom.
All I'm saying is that it will feel like a cheat to give Veronica the end-of-arc satisfaction (a renewed relationship) if she hasn't changed in some clear way.
Yes, but that's where I am willing to take her wanting to change in some clear way, seeing the need to change, as opposed to actually accomplishing that in one fell swoop. That's the difference that I meant and that's why I can see it happening in shorter time.
OTOH, RT has shown in the past that he can take big emotional leaps and have the audience buy into them. So that's another factor, which suggests that he can in fact pull this off.
And I am praying that you are right. :))
I do think there will be some kind of reconciliation, but I'm not going to make any guesses about the nature of that renewed connection, how much will be actual and how much suggested.
I can't make any guesses, either. I read all these takes, and different reasonings from different sources, and they all make sense. It's exhausting. LOL. But I was just saying that I would gladly take any kind of reconciliation -- however unresolved -- over having it end with Veronica dating Piz and being all happy. That would kill it all for me.
But I have faith, because RT said that -- apart from LoVe issues -- he isn't very interested in writing a sweet/even/placid relationship. In which case, why would he write that for V/Piz? In other words, if that (*shudder*) happens, it, hopefully, be extremely temporary, and serve as some kind of a catalyst for something. That's the hope I am hanging on to. I may, very well, be delusional. Wouldn't be the first time. LOL.
Yes, but that's where I am willing to take her wanting to change in some clear way, seeing the need to change, as opposed to actually accomplishing that in one fell swoop. That's the difference that I meant and that's why I can see it happening in shorter time.
Ah, okay. I had to reread your first comment to fully get it, but now I do. And I agree. She can open her eyes to her own issues fairly easily, and can even take some definite step toward showing him she sees the problems and is willing to work on changing (much the way I wrote her in Chemical Reactions, actually, which was the main reason I wanted to write that fic). As long as it's not a single epiphany!
And yes, V/Piz would have to be a catalyst, not an end in itself. RT may be willful and perhaps even perverse, but he's not stupid. Piz ain't a contender. If V is dating Piz at the cold open to ep. 20 and is all happy and in love (barf), then I guarantee you he'll be dead by the end of the episode. (And I mean literally dead, a/k/a roadkill.) But I just don't see it happening. Not in a hearts-and-flowers sort of way (if it happens at all). Nope.
She can open her eyes to her own issues fairly easily, and can even take some definite step toward showing him she sees the problems and is willing to work on changing (much the way I wrote her in Chemical Reactions, actually, which was the main reason I wanted to write that fic).
And I am so glad you did! That is, incidentally the reason I wrote mine, too. To make some headway for Veronica seeing her own actions. Sigh. :)
As long as it's not a single epiphany!
God, yes! I hate epiphanies, especially Veronica's. They never stick, for one. And they come out of nowhere. And while it's funny in Stan Marsh, in Veronica it's really not. :)
And yes, V/Piz would have to be a catalyst, not an end in itself. RT may be willful and perhaps even perverse, but he's not stupid. Piz ain't a contender. If V is dating Piz at the cold open to ep. 20 and is all happy and in love (barf), then I guarantee you he'll be dead by the end of the episode. (And I mean literally dead, a/k/a roadkill.) But I just don't see it happening. Not in a hearts-and-flowers sort of way (if it happens at all). Nope.
Hee, at this point I dislike him enough (or feel threatened, which is the same thing, sadly) to almost wish this outcome. Except not really, because the last thing I want is for Veronica to spend a single moment mourning Piz! Let alone spend half of hypothetical season 4 (should we get it) doing so. In short, I don't want her dating the guy, liking the guy, having sexual relationship with him, being happy with him for even a second, or feeling bad if he dies. And yes, I know it's irrational (well, mostly), but there it is. I also know that the odds of me getting what I want are slim. So, I'll settle for at least not getting most of what I really don't want. :)
Ultimately, I am hoping that whatever RT does, the plan is not to replace JD with CL. Whatever his feelings (and we don't even know what they are for sure), RT knows JD's potential. And however much he may like Piz, he hasn't so far given him any truly compelling material to work with. Now, that could change, and for all I know, CL may be able to pull it off. But I doubt he can rise to JD's level. And you just don't throw away an asset like that. So, with Veronica or without, I sincerely hope they are not cutting JD's time and/or getting rid of him.
That is, incidentally the reason I wrote mine, too. To make some headway for Veronica seeing her own actions.
And it's part of what makes yours so satisfying to read, that it's clear that you've got her going there. Which she so needs to do.
Yeah, the thought of V mourning Piz is reason enough to avoid slaughtering him at the end of this season. Ah well.
I think CL is a good actor, BTW. But I concur, he's been given NOTHING to work with. Which is why I'm absolutely convinced he's not on the scene to replace JD, but rather to provide the tension inherent in a triangle. If Piz were more, we'd know by now because he'd have some DEPTH. A reason to invest in him. Instead we have goofy bad jokes and longing crush-boy eyes. It's so LAME. Honestly, it reminds me more and more of Leo. Every bit of Leo's dialogue with Veronica was about getting into her pants, and I found much of it wince-worthy. And he was cute and dopey in some of the same well-meaning ways.
Seriously. That's it. Piz is Leo redux. Not Duncan. Leo. No threat there, not for the long term.
Seriously. That's it. Piz is Leo redux. Not Duncan. Leo. No threat there, not for the long term.
Hee, someone commented in their replies to my fic that Piz is that Smith kid from "Meet John Smith." He is too young for Veronica (if not in age at least in experience), too eager, too hyper, and too mooney-eyed. And he serves fine for the MotW purpose(s), but not for any kind of depth. And it's just so impossible to see Veronica considering a serious relationship with him, just as it would have been to see her actually reciprocating anything for that freshman kid in the episode. :)
And it's part of what makes yours so satisfying to read, that it's clear that you've got her going there. Which she so needs to do.
Sigh. She so does. I'm just praying it's not just our wishful thinking that this is where it goes on the show. Really, it's been too, too pointed for it to be just a nothing.
But it's been set up with Logan's breakup speech in 3.09 (as well as things he said in 3.07 and 3.08) that he sees problems in Veronica's attitude toward him (and toward people in general) that are damaging their chances at having a healthy relationship. And within the relationship as portrayed in 3.11, he shows some clear signs of trepidation. And it's clear that he'll be badly hurt by V running away (again). To me, it's not about realism here, nor even about psychological truth, as much as it is about paying off what you set up. IOW, I'm now looking at story as a writer might (funny, I am a writer, hmm...) All I'm saying is that it will feel like a cheat to give Veronica the end-of-arc satisfaction (a renewed relationship) if she hasn't changed in some clear way. Because that's the character arc that has been set into motion. It needs a proper build and resolution, and I'm being cautious by questioning whether it will have time to complete itself in eight episodes. OTOH, RT has shown in the past that he can take big emotional leaps and have the audience buy into them. So that's another factor, which suggests that he can in fact pull this off.
I'm not being definitive here on either side of this end-of-season issue. It's more that I used to feel definitively that they WOULD get back together by or in 3.20 and now I'm not so sure. I do think there will be some kind of reconciliation, but I'm not going to make any guesses about the nature of that renewed connection, how much will be actual and how much suggested.
That make more sense now?
Reply
You weren't. It was more of my take on the general feeling in the fandom.
All I'm saying is that it will feel like a cheat to give Veronica the end-of-arc satisfaction (a renewed relationship) if she hasn't changed in some clear way.
Yes, but that's where I am willing to take her wanting to change in some clear way, seeing the need to change, as opposed to actually accomplishing that in one fell swoop. That's the difference that I meant and that's why I can see it happening in shorter time.
OTOH, RT has shown in the past that he can take big emotional leaps and have the audience buy into them. So that's another factor, which suggests that he can in fact pull this off.
And I am praying that you are right. :))
I do think there will be some kind of reconciliation, but I'm not going to make any guesses about the nature of that renewed connection, how much will be actual and how much suggested.
I can't make any guesses, either. I read all these takes, and different reasonings from different sources, and they all make sense. It's exhausting. LOL. But I was just saying that I would gladly take any kind of reconciliation -- however unresolved -- over having it end with Veronica dating Piz and being all happy. That would kill it all for me.
But I have faith, because RT said that -- apart from LoVe issues -- he isn't very interested in writing a sweet/even/placid relationship. In which case, why would he write that for V/Piz? In other words, if that (*shudder*) happens, it, hopefully, be extremely temporary, and serve as some kind of a catalyst for something. That's the hope I am hanging on to. I may, very well, be delusional. Wouldn't be the first time. LOL.
Reply
Ah, okay. I had to reread your first comment to fully get it, but now I do. And I agree. She can open her eyes to her own issues fairly easily, and can even take some definite step toward showing him she sees the problems and is willing to work on changing (much the way I wrote her in Chemical Reactions, actually, which was the main reason I wanted to write that fic). As long as it's not a single epiphany!
And yes, V/Piz would have to be a catalyst, not an end in itself. RT may be willful and perhaps even perverse, but he's not stupid. Piz ain't a contender. If V is dating Piz at the cold open to ep. 20 and is all happy and in love (barf), then I guarantee you he'll be dead by the end of the episode. (And I mean literally dead, a/k/a roadkill.) But I just don't see it happening. Not in a hearts-and-flowers sort of way (if it happens at all). Nope.
Reply
And I am so glad you did! That is, incidentally the reason I wrote mine, too. To make some headway for Veronica seeing her own actions. Sigh. :)
As long as it's not a single epiphany!
God, yes! I hate epiphanies, especially Veronica's. They never stick, for one. And they come out of nowhere. And while it's funny in Stan Marsh, in Veronica it's really not. :)
And yes, V/Piz would have to be a catalyst, not an end in itself. RT may be willful and perhaps even perverse, but he's not stupid. Piz ain't a contender. If V is dating Piz at the cold open to ep. 20 and is all happy and in love (barf), then I guarantee you he'll be dead by the end of the episode. (And I mean literally dead, a/k/a roadkill.) But I just don't see it happening. Not in a hearts-and-flowers sort of way (if it happens at all). Nope.
Hee, at this point I dislike him enough (or feel threatened, which is the same thing, sadly) to almost wish this outcome. Except not really, because the last thing I want is for Veronica to spend a single moment mourning Piz! Let alone spend half of hypothetical season 4 (should we get it) doing so. In short, I don't want her dating the guy, liking the guy, having sexual relationship with him, being happy with him for even a second, or feeling bad if he dies. And yes, I know it's irrational (well, mostly), but there it is. I also know that the odds of me getting what I want are slim. So, I'll settle for at least not getting most of what I really don't want. :)
Ultimately, I am hoping that whatever RT does, the plan is not to replace JD with CL. Whatever his feelings (and we don't even know what they are for sure), RT knows JD's potential. And however much he may like Piz, he hasn't so far given him any truly compelling material to work with. Now, that could change, and for all I know, CL may be able to pull it off. But I doubt he can rise to JD's level. And you just don't throw away an asset like that. So, with Veronica or without, I sincerely hope they are not cutting JD's time and/or getting rid of him.
Reply
And it's part of what makes yours so satisfying to read, that it's clear that you've got her going there. Which she so needs to do.
Yeah, the thought of V mourning Piz is reason enough to avoid slaughtering him at the end of this season. Ah well.
I think CL is a good actor, BTW. But I concur, he's been given NOTHING to work with. Which is why I'm absolutely convinced he's not on the scene to replace JD, but rather to provide the tension inherent in a triangle. If Piz were more, we'd know by now because he'd have some DEPTH. A reason to invest in him. Instead we have goofy bad jokes and longing crush-boy eyes. It's so LAME. Honestly, it reminds me more and more of Leo. Every bit of Leo's dialogue with Veronica was about getting into her pants, and I found much of it wince-worthy. And he was cute and dopey in some of the same well-meaning ways.
Seriously. That's it. Piz is Leo redux. Not Duncan. Leo. No threat there, not for the long term.
Reply
Hee, someone commented in their replies to my fic that Piz is that Smith kid from "Meet John Smith." He is too young for Veronica (if not in age at least in experience), too eager, too hyper, and too mooney-eyed. And he serves fine for the MotW purpose(s), but not for any kind of depth. And it's just so impossible to see Veronica considering a serious relationship with him, just as it would have been to see her actually reciprocating anything for that freshman kid in the episode. :)
And it's part of what makes yours so satisfying to read, that it's clear that you've got her going there. Which she so needs to do.
Sigh. She so does. I'm just praying it's not just our wishful thinking that this is where it goes on the show. Really, it's been too, too pointed for it to be just a nothing.
And thank you! :)
Reply
Leave a comment