Buffy, Riley (yes, Riley) and Spike (1/2): Not-Entirely Random (Feminist) Ramblings

[red_satin_doll]

When it comes to BtVS, I'd promised myself that I would not write on my own journal here about subjects that are generally quite well-worn and have been discussed at length - and with great intellegence - by other people. Nevermind that I'll rant or blather at length about a variety of subjects (the comics, the episode AYW, etc etc) on other people

Comments

[pocochina]

1) it occurs to me that the sentence can also be interpreted to imply that Buffy is "using" herself, not unlike the way Faith used her body in "Who's That Girl". And it ties in with the sense of having "come back wrong": whether she can consciously vocalize it or not, that she has only been using the body she was inserted when Willow resurrected her in Bargaining

OOOOH. I'm glad you did decide to post because I've never seen this point brought out before but it sounds exactly right. And I really, really like the comparison with her experience with Faith.

I'm not negating the sincerity of the apology to Spike, but she is apologizing to herself at the same time.aw, yes. She really can't make an honest apology until she's started to forgive herself, really

[red_satin_doll]

Thank you for reading my tossed-brain-salad! (I shall try to be more coherent in future.)

I'm glad you did decide to post because I've never seen this point brought out before but it sounds exactly right. And I really, really like the comparison with her experience with Faith.I actually had to have that pointed out to me - I watched the scene and TOTALLY missed the fact that Faith was really raging against herself, (not against Buffy -in-Faith). When I was first watching a few months back, I was also reading Noel Murray's reviews on the ATV Club, and someone made note of that in the comments. (I felt foolish for not catching it.) Fortunately it's an episode that rewards multiple viewings. I hope to do some meta on that episode more specifically

[rahirah]

Just as a data point, I identify with Spike far more than with Buffy, but not because he's feminized. In fact, I think fandom rather overdoes feminizing Spike - yes, some of his traits are more often assigned to female characters, but in other ways he's quite stereotypically masculine. It's A) because I find his goals and emotions far easier to understand than Buffy's in most cases, B) because I've had the experience of being madly in love with someone who'd been gutted by a previous relationship and was using me as Rebound Girl, and C) I'm old enough to have lived through being in the closet. Buffy's attraction to Spike, and her self-loathing at that attraction, reads very like the self-loathing of a closeted gay relationship. (And yes, I'm aware of the dubiousness of equating vampires to any real-world minority group, I'm just talking about the relationship dynamics here

[red_satin_doll]

Buffy's attraction to Spike, and her self-loathing at that attraction, reads very like the self-loathing of a closeted gay relationship. (And yes, I'm aware of the dubiousness of equating vampires to any real-world minority group, I'm just talking about the relationship dynamics here.)

Agreed; and I noticed that in S1-2 as well, in terms of Buffy not being "out" to her mother. Again, I didn't take it as a direct commentary on being gay, but simply borrowing the concept of "in the closet". (I've seen people argue for and against that reading.)

I think in the '80's there was a resurgence of vampire films (The Hunger, etc) that seemed to be using vampires as a metaphor for fear of AIDS (a least, I read a lot of commentary at the time that indicated such); and of course there's the gay subtext (and context) of Anne Rice's work.

I don't think that's what's going on here in BtVS however; and I never read the vampires in this show as a metaphor for an oppressed group, though I'm sure some people do.

[norwie2010]

Oh, wow. Very interesting. Will come back to this (and all your lovely comments you gave last week) once i have a bit of free time at my hands (like, next century?!). :-)

[red_satin_doll]

(like, next century?!). :-)

No hurry, trust me! (And did I send you replies last week? I cannot remember at all. That's the thing about ADD - everything old is new again.) And thank you for reading it - I'm not claiming it's coherent at all, more of a mental jumble. I'll probably refine some of these ideas later on.

BTW - I was reading one of gabrielleabelle's posts from two or so years ago the other day in which you had commented, and you mentioned that you were a man who believed in feminist ideas, or somesuch, and I admit it made me all sorts of happy if so. I've read your posts and always sort of assumed you were a woman based on what you've written. Which is terribly sexist of me, I know. But it also makes me think of Buffy in S5 looking over her mom's flowers: "Still some guys getting it right." (And if I misread that - never mind me.)

[norwie2010]

Believe me, it wasn't an easy journey to reach the point were i even SAW the problem! I grew up on the male narrative: the Greek tragedies, the Elisabethian drama and the North-European/German myths and tragedies (the Nibelung Song was the first time i actually stopped and thought: these two women - Brunhild and Kriemhild - are really treated unfairly - both, by the male characters as well as the story

[eilowyn]

(is super embarrassed because I've been in fandom with you for years and never knew you were a dude. My apologies, it's just amazingly rare - and just amazing! - to hear a guy be so articulate on what are seen as women's issues.)

[ever_neutral]

2) Hmmmmm, that's an interesting idea. I can agree about Buffy feeling like she's not been fully ~inhabiting herself since coming back from Heaven. Her affair with Spike was all about trying to "feel", after all. She needed the tactility of their relationship (… violent sex) to make her feel connected and maybe tethered to something, but that also had the adverse effect of leaving her even more adrift. Because while I believe she was able to be her worst self with Spike (and that this was a really valuable thing during a period where she felt she couldn't be honest with her loved ones), she was also brutally splitting herself in two. No wonder she felt so adrift

[red_satin_doll]

Her affair with Spike was all about trying to "feel", after all. She needed the tactility of their relationship (… violent sex) to make her feel connected and maybe tethered to something, but that also had the adverse effect of leaving her even more adrift.

I agree with that entire paragraph there - "splitting oneself into two" seems to be a major theme on the show from WTTH when Buffy first encounters Giles. (Her speech to him in that scene is what sold me on the show right off the bat.)

Word to this. Spike is my favourite dude on the show and one of my favourites… ever. But he still doesn't beat out Buffy...it is bothersome and says troubling things about fandom's attitude to men and women. : \

Word back. I think what you're saying here connects to what I said upthread to norwie_2010 and eilowyn about the relative awareness of women to their own issues in RL politics.

I do get what you're saying about S3 re: Angel, but I actually thought the Buffy/Faith arc was really important to Buffy's character? I didn't feel that her

[shapinglight]

However, when I read comments by the writers and the time and within fandom that S6 - S7, from SR to Chosen, was really "all about Spike" and his journey, does it bother me?Hmm, I've been in the fandom a long time and I don't remember any of the writers saying that. Where did you come across it? In fact, the only people I can remember seeing say it are people who hate Spike and insist he took over the show and ruined it

[red_satin_doll]

Hmm, I've been in the fandom a long time and I don't remember any of the writers saying that. Where did you come across it? In fact, the only people I can remember seeing say it are people who hate Spike and insist he took over the show and ruined it. Argh, I should have done a specific link to the reference to the show writers themselves. I do see that a lot of fans either focus on Spike (to the exclusion of Buffy) or the Buffy-haters who claim Buffy really didn't have anything to do with the final victory. I may be conflating all this a bit but when I find the specific reference to the show's writers again I'll edit my post to include it

[shapinglight]

I do see that a lot of fans either focus on Spike (to the exclusion of Buffy) or the Buffy-haters who claim Buffy really didn't have anything to do with the final victory.

Speaking only for myself, I focus on Spike a lot, but that's just because I like him, not because I think he should have all the credit. That said, I did once get very incensed when someone did a post claiming that the ubervamps had already been defeated by Buffy and the other Slayers and that Spike's sacrifice in Chosen was essentially just mopping up a few stragglers. To me, that felt like denying him his one true, inarguable moment of heroism (previous ones, including his refusal to tell Glory about Dawn in Intervention have so often been shouted down by people who hate the character as him just trying to impress Buffy). I felt it didn't matter if it was Spike who actually saved the day in that episode. Buffy's heroism in the episode lay not so much in physically defeating the First but in morally defeating it by empowering all the Slayers and changing the 'one

[red_satin_doll]

I did once get very incensed when someone did a post claiming that the ubervamps had already been defeated by Buffy and the other Slayers and that Spike's sacrifice in Chosen was essentially just mopping up a few stragglers. To me, that felt like denying him his one true, inarguable moment of heroismI think I first saw that arguement being made on ATV Club(Noel Murray watches) - not by Noel himself but in the comments by others, but the more prevalent view there was the one I noted, that Buffy did nothing and it was all Spike. (Maybe we hang out in different places?) I do NOT like it either way, because to me the point is that they are a team in this; Buffy is the General, marshalling the troops. The spell is her idea, even if the execution of it is wonky (VERY wonky - why not do it before opening the seal and send the girls down there already empowered? Oh never mind.) Joss said the plot was less important to him than the emotional component, but to me that's a poor excuse for lazy writing

[rahirah]

I've always had the impression that the last really important thing Joss had to say about Buffy as a character was her sacrifice in S5. Everything since then has been a holding pattern, because he really doesn't know what to do with her.

[red_satin_doll]

I think you are quite right about that - in which case I'd prefer that he let her go. Either let the story end, or allow someone to take it up who is genuinely interested in the Buffyverse and in Buffy and her friends.
(Rather than continuing his role as "God", getting the final say because everyone defers to him ultimately. Which is a meta in and of itself.)

I think it was norwie_2010 (?) who wrote an interesting meta saying that the comics (S8) essentially retell the same story as the show (merely twisting or reversing the outcome).

[boot_the_grime]

Well, I completely disagree with that, since I would've hated if The Gift had been the end for Buffy, and since I love Buffy's development and arc in seasons 6 and 7. I really don't believe that he "doesn't know what to do with her", since he's done some really amazing things with her, and personally written some great character moments for her, from OMWF to CWDP to Chosen (with the exception of the Bangel scene which he really had trouble writing) and, yes, several of the comic issues, particularly 8.40.

This really just seems to be a matter of personal preference and attachment (or lack of it) to character arcs. James Marsters claims in interviews that Joss didn't know what to do with Spike, which makes me think "WTF are you on about, man", but I don't think JM really gets the importance of Spike's role and arc from the interviews of his I've seen.

[rahirah]

I do think there were some excellent episodes in S6 and 7, so I can't honestly say that I wish the show had ended with S5. But overall, S6 and S7 didn't work for me, for various reasons. The one really good thing the comics have done is make them look much better to me by comparison, but I still don't particularly enjoy them as a whole.