Buffy, Riley (yes, Riley) and Spike (1/2): Not-Entirely Random (Feminist) Ramblings

[red_satin_doll]

When it comes to BtVS, I'd promised myself that I would not write on my own journal here about subjects that are generally quite well-worn and have been discussed at length - and with great intellegence - by other people. Nevermind that I'll rant or blather at length about a variety of subjects (the comics, the episode AYW, etc etc) on other people

Comments

[pocochina]

1) it occurs to me that the sentence can also be interpreted to imply that Buffy is "using" herself, not unlike the way Faith used her body in "Who's That Girl". And it ties in with the sense of having "come back wrong": whether she can consciously vocalize it or not, that she has only been using the body she was inserted when Willow resurrected her in Bargaining

OOOOH. I'm glad you did decide to post because I've never seen this point brought out before but it sounds exactly right. And I really, really like the comparison with her experience with Faith.

I'm not negating the sincerity of the apology to Spike, but she is apologizing to herself at the same time.aw, yes. She really can't make an honest apology until she's started to forgive herself, really

[red_satin_doll]

Thank you for reading my tossed-brain-salad! (I shall try to be more coherent in future.)

I'm glad you did decide to post because I've never seen this point brought out before but it sounds exactly right. And I really, really like the comparison with her experience with Faith.I actually had to have that pointed out to me - I watched the scene and TOTALLY missed the fact that Faith was really raging against herself, (not against Buffy -in-Faith). When I was first watching a few months back, I was also reading Noel Murray's reviews on the ATV Club, and someone made note of that in the comments. (I felt foolish for not catching it.) Fortunately it's an episode that rewards multiple viewings. I hope to do some meta on that episode more specifically

[rahirah]

Just as a data point, I identify with Spike far more than with Buffy, but not because he's feminized. In fact, I think fandom rather overdoes feminizing Spike - yes, some of his traits are more often assigned to female characters, but in other ways he's quite stereotypically masculine. It's A) because I find his goals and emotions far easier to understand than Buffy's in most cases, B) because I've had the experience of being madly in love with someone who'd been gutted by a previous relationship and was using me as Rebound Girl, and C) I'm old enough to have lived through being in the closet. Buffy's attraction to Spike, and her self-loathing at that attraction, reads very like the self-loathing of a closeted gay relationship. (And yes, I'm aware of the dubiousness of equating vampires to any real-world minority group, I'm just talking about the relationship dynamics here

[red_satin_doll]

Buffy's attraction to Spike, and her self-loathing at that attraction, reads very like the self-loathing of a closeted gay relationship. (And yes, I'm aware of the dubiousness of equating vampires to any real-world minority group, I'm just talking about the relationship dynamics here.)

Agreed; and I noticed that in S1-2 as well, in terms of Buffy not being "out" to her mother. Again, I didn't take it as a direct commentary on being gay, but simply borrowing the concept of "in the closet". (I've seen people argue for and against that reading.)

I think in the '80's there was a resurgence of vampire films (The Hunger, etc) that seemed to be using vampires as a metaphor for fear of AIDS (a least, I read a lot of commentary at the time that indicated such); and of course there's the gay subtext (and context) of Anne Rice's work.

I don't think that's what's going on here in BtVS however; and I never read the vampires in this show as a metaphor for an oppressed group, though I'm sure some people do.

[red_satin_doll]

FYI I just wrote you a VERY long response and LJ ate it, damn it all. I'll try again later. You've actually inspired some thoughts on the use of the words "sorry" and "love" in the Buffyverse, that I think will become a meta.

I wanted very badly for Buffy to come to the realization that her feelings for Spike, in and of themselves, weren't evil or sick or wrong. (If she'd allowed those feelings to influence her into letting Spike's evil deeds slide, THAT would have been wrong, but that's not the same thing.) But she never does.

Agree to disagree? I see her actions towards him in S7 as proof of apology and having learned - this after her verbal apology in AYW, which is the first time she acknowledges him as a person, even if the apology is not perfect it's a first step. I don't see his soulquest as fixing anything by itself nor is it, IMO, his redemption all on it's own. In any case, her actions to me (including words like "I believe in you"), which help him heal on several levels, is all the proof I need personally.

the writers

[rahirah]

Agree to disagree?

Sure; I know I'm in the minority in that opinion.

I don't think that Spike getting a soul was his redemption (I was shipping Spuffy when the show was first airing and it was inconceivable that Spike would ever get a soul!) but I do suspect it's the main/only reason Buffy was willing to help him in S7. Him having a soul now made it acceptable for her to help and forgive him. If he'd tried to get a soul and failed, or if getting a soul hadn't been an option for some reason, I think she would have been perfectly willing to let him rot in the school basement. And I'm not sure how I feel about that.

[boot_the_grime]

Very much disagree. Buffy was obviously concerned with Spike when she saw him crazy and with scratches on his chest in the basement, when she had no idea he had a soul. She reluctantly agreed to give him a chance to help before she knew he had a soul and wasn't sure about his motives. And, really, she never had the "I hate the bastard" attitude that a lot of the fandom wanted her to have after SR in season 6, there was resentment but she was still concerned where he was and didn't want him dead. I don't think she ever would have let him "rot in the basement", even though she would've never considered rekindling a relationship with him if he hadn't changed by getting a soul

[rahirah]

Sure, that's one perfectly valid interpretation. I can't completely buy into it for various reasons: I don't know if Buffy's concern when she first sees Spike in the basement is because of his condition, or because a vampire who attacked her not that long ago is back, and is obviously unstable. When he reappears, having apparently saned himself up, she reluctantly agrees to let him help her - but it's not until she finds out he has a soul that she reluctantly decides to help him

[red_satin_doll]

I would be very happy if the show had ever explicitly said that Buffy recognized that deciding to get the soul, rather than having it, was why she felt Spike could be a good man and believed in him. But it doesn't. It leaves that up to the viewer's interpretation.

Fair enough. As I mentioned, I tend to feel the similarly about Willow in S7 - has she learned her lesson about what she did to Tara and why it was wrong? So I don't know why I feel ok about one and not the other, except that I'm pretty Buffy-centric by that point, and maybe I think I see more in the Buffy/Spike interaction that I'm ok with. And I completely buy her reluctance at first because she doesn't know what she'd be getting herself into - she's starting off life on a positive, sunnier note when he comes back to town, and I'm sure she's not wanting to go "back there". But we've discussed all this upthread, so I'll stop beating the poor horsie.

If you happen to be a viewer who is completely confident that you know what's going on in Buffy's head at all times, it'

[rahirah]

I actually felt the cutting herself off theme and her hardness/bitchiness were in character, yes, but badly handled or a bit overdone by the writers, to the point where I actually began to suspect that some of the writers feelings about Buffy, or about SMG herself, had begun to seep into things?Some of the things Joss has said over the years (as well as what happened to Cordelia, when he had problems with Charisma Carpenter) lead me to suspect that very strongly myself

[red_satin_doll]

I've heard some horror stories regarding the way he treated Charisma, Robia LaMorte, etc (that remark that he killed off Jenny to show what happens to an actor when they get him mad may have been meant as a joke, but if so it's a particularly unfunny and revealing one.) I actually have a great deal of respect for Amber Benson for not giving in and doing CWDP. That might have been "nifty" dramatically, but I think she was absolutely right in thinking that would be hurtful to fans who were still upset over Tara's death. (And somehow I suspect that for all the praise Joss gets, he's not the easiest boss and you need to beware if you get in his line of fire? He sounds to me like another "baby king", but I'm just extrapolating from things I've read, so I could be totally off-base.)

But if you look close, you can see where they were doing setup for a possible Dawn spinoff early in the season (all that back to high school stuff, giving her a gang of friends who were never sean again), and a Slayer school spinoff mid-season. But the

[red_satin_doll]

100% agreement on this - and how much do I LOVE your icon? (Allow me a fangirl moment) That scene is one of my favorites in the series - actually that shot of SMG's face is one of my favorites. Buffy's face is suffused with love and caring and SMG just knocks it out of the park.

Buffy was obviously concerned with Spike when she saw him crazy and with scratches on his chest in the basement, when she had no idea he had a soul.I'd add - and this was inspired by Barb's comment above - the scene in Beneath You, specifically, where Buffy follows Spike to the church. She's seen him behave in a violent, insane manner; when he screams "help me" she dismisses him at first because priority #1 is helping Richard, who's injured and in shock. Only after she's made sure help is arriving and Xander and Anya are there to stay with him does she go after Spike (priority #2) to find out what's going on with him. Which actually seems like a pretty foolish thing to do - or would be for an ordinary woman, but of course she's the Slayer. She can "take

[boot_the_grime]

The avatar was made as a gift for me by pamsblau. <3

[red_satin_doll]

One of the ironies of the situation is that Giles is as influenced by his own feelings as Buffy is, despite believing himself to be the voice of reason.Indeed. He had perfectly logical reasons for leaving Buffy and the Scoobies in S6, just as he had logical reasons for what he did to Buffy in Helpless; he's very good at rationalizing things. And obviously she's learned from her "father", or at least is making a very good effort at matching his logic with her own

[red_satin_doll]

Sure; I know I'm in the minority in that opinion.

Are you? I'm sure I've seen others voice a similar opinion; I guess it just depends on which site one happens to be on. But you'd know better than I, of course.

How embarrassing is it that I only just now figured out that's Harmony on your icon and "got" it? (I assume the text actually refers to her on AtS, which I haven't see - thus my excuse.)

[rahirah]

Well, if you tallied up the opinion of every fan, I think it would probably be split about 50/50. But if I'm just talking about "Spuffy fans who actively talk meta on Livejournal," which is the only site I really frequent these days, I think the Buffy-centric view is more prominent. (Which is a a change from, and I'm sure partly a reaction to, fandom ten or so years ago. Spuffy fandom was, for some time, strongly Spike-centric.)

I have a sad affection for Harmony. *g*