Buffy, Riley (yes, Riley) and Spike (1/2): Not-Entirely Random (Feminist) Ramblings

[red_satin_doll]

When it comes to BtVS, I'd promised myself that I would not write on my own journal here about subjects that are generally quite well-worn and have been discussed at length - and with great intellegence - by other people. Nevermind that I'll rant or blather at length about a variety of subjects (the comics, the episode AYW, etc etc) on other people

Comments

[red_satin_doll]

Hmm, I've been in the fandom a long time and I don't remember any of the writers saying that. Where did you come across it? In fact, the only people I can remember seeing say it are people who hate Spike and insist he took over the show and ruined it.

Argh, I should have done a specific link to the reference to the show writers themselves. I do see that a lot of fans either focus on Spike (to the exclusion of Buffy) or the Buffy-haters who claim Buffy really didn't have anything to do with the final victory. I may be conflating all this a bit but when I find the specific reference to the show's writers again I'll edit my post to include it.

I'll confess again to not having watched TGiQ, and I know many people like it; I'm not talking about it's quality as entertainment in and of itself. I guess it's fair that Buffy be merely a representative of an ideal to Angel, because that's what she was to him from the first moment ("my destiny"); but going away was about being his own man. Fair enough, but Spike KNOWS her in a way Angel didn't, and was a friend and companion as well as enemy (as Spike said to Buffy and Angel in "Lover's Walk", "You'll never be friends".) So the idea that he's taking up Angel's habits - lurking, watching her from a distance, making decision on her behalf - is not something I want to see. (And the notion that, knowing her abandonment issues, he wouldn't even call her to let her know he was still alive? Maybe not to be lovers, but that seems a huge negation of their friendship, and a step backwards for Spike. Just my opinion, and I'm probably letting my fangirlishness cloud my judgement.)

But the point being, the way it's handled in that episode seems to be part of a larger pattern which in and of itself is part of a larger cultural pattern.

I guess I should remember that Joss may claim to be a feminist, but he hasn't really done the work to examine his priviledge (that he's less of a feminist than he thinks he is.)

Great post. And I think you're 100% right about comics Buffy and how she's suffering at the hands of unsympathetic male comic book writers.

Thank you; I know that what I have to say about the comics is old news by now, but it was new to me this year and quite a shock. And I don't have to read every issue; the few I picked up literally reeked of it, IMO. (But I know there are people who love it, so to each their own.) I don't know if that's a gender divide, in terms of those who love the comics and those who don't?

[shapinglight]

I do see that a lot of fans either focus on Spike (to the exclusion of Buffy) or the Buffy-haters who claim Buffy really didn't have anything to do with the final victory.

Speaking only for myself, I focus on Spike a lot, but that's just because I like him, not because I think he should have all the credit. That said, I did once get very incensed when someone did a post claiming that the ubervamps had already been defeated by Buffy and the other Slayers and that Spike's sacrifice in Chosen was essentially just mopping up a few stragglers. To me, that felt like denying him his one true, inarguable moment of heroism (previous ones, including his refusal to tell Glory about Dawn in Intervention have so often been shouted down by people who hate the character as him just trying to impress Buffy). I felt it didn't matter if it was Spike who actually saved the day in that episode. Buffy's heroism in the episode lay not so much in physically defeating the First but in morally defeating it by empowering all the Slayers and changing the 'one girl in all the world' restriction forever (as per beer_good_foamy's wonderful recent meta post).

I think when approaching TGiQ, it's also worth remembering that it was Angel's show. Everything Spike does in that series is to further Angel's story, not his own. The original plan had been for SMG to appear during the final season - not in this episode but an earlier one. If she had done so, maybe there would have been some kind of Spuffy interaction, but I suspect it would have been peripheral at best. I think that mostly the writers didn't really want to deal with Spuffy. Joss thought the "I love you", "No, you don't but thanks for saying it," exchange was the end of the matter.

I don't know if that's a gender divide, in terms of those who love the comics and those who don't?

There doesn't appear to be. There isn't really a gender divide between those who don't like the way she's being written either.

[red_satin_doll]

I did once get very incensed when someone did a post claiming that the ubervamps had already been defeated by Buffy and the other Slayers and that Spike's sacrifice in Chosen was essentially just mopping up a few stragglers. To me, that felt like denying him his one true, inarguable moment of heroism

I think I first saw that arguement being made on ATV Club(Noel Murray watches) - not by Noel himself but in the comments by others, but the more prevalent view there was the one I noted, that Buffy did nothing and it was all Spike. (Maybe we hang out in different places?) I do NOT like it either way, because to me the point is that they are a team in this; Buffy is the General, marshalling the troops. The spell is her idea, even if the execution of it is wonky (VERY wonky - why not do it before opening the seal and send the girls down there already empowered? Oh never mind.) Joss said the plot was less important to him than the emotional component, but to me that's a poor excuse for lazy writing.

I think there were elements cut from the shooting script that might have made the connection between the Slayers spell and the amulet more explicit (where Spike literally feels the wounds inflicted on Buffy and the other girls), and that's a shame.

Buffy's heroism in the episode lay not so much in physically defeating the First but in morally defeating it by empowering all the Slayers and changing the 'one girl in all the world' restriction forever (as per beer_good_foamy's wonderful recent meta post).

That is one of my favorite metas about the Buffyverse.

I think that mostly the writers didn't really want to deal with Spuffy.

*pouts* And so I happily submerse myself in my favorite post Chosen/NFA fanfics - in which Buffy almost always asks Spike the obvious "Why didn't you tell me?" And then they have sex. :)

Joss thought the "I love you", "No, you don't but thanks for saying it," exchange was the end of the matter.

And I would have been fine with him leaving it at that, but that's just me.