Pagan ethics statement project

[elfwreck]

In response to a couple of recent abuse cases, some Pagans are working to make a "Pagans against sexual abuse" statement, either for the media or for the internal Pagan community or both. Background info is available at The Wild Hunt blog.

Author Brendan Myers volunteered to host the discussion and created a subforum for related topics. The

Comments

[daemonnoire]

Although, on the matter of the second note, if you're not behind a statement condemning sexual abuse... Why the hell not? (Not you in particular naturally, it's just a question I feel everyone should ask.)

[elfwreck]

I don't think anyone (reasonable, somewhat sane, not a sociopath etc.) wouldn't want to condemn sexual abuse, but people might think *this* statement was pointless, or too biased in some way, or that pushing to get signatures to this like a petition would distract from the real work of *finding* the sexual predators in our midst

[grynner]

My question is "What's the point

[elfwreck]

I think of this as sort of like an interfaith organization's guiding principles statement--each individual religious group is going to need to make its own decisions about how to implement it, but they can agree that they share a given set of values.

I agree that a shared values statement without activism at the local community level is fairly pointless.

I mean, if you were legit, you'd have an internal means of policing your own to prevent these kind of tragedies.

We do, sort of. But those means aren't transferable to other groups. And most Pagan groups are caught by that problem. The hope, here, is that having a shared ethics statement will help groups realize they *do* need to coordinate their efforts to deal with (sexual) predators.

[voxwoman]

swap 2 and 3. State your beliefs first, then your rejected premises and disavowals.

7 should be the first thing seen (preamble), and I don't think it needs to "be prepared in response to atrocities" but should be part of an overarching ethics statement.

[elfwreck]

Thank you; that's the kind of help it needs. I keep seeing the original version when I look at this, and that makes it hard to sort out the details of how this version could best be arranged.

I like the idea of including it as part of a larger ethics statement, but I shudder to think of what that'll include. (There were people in the original discussion thread who said "We've got the Rede; what else would we need to mention?")

[voxwoman]

point those people to the Talmud, and the various Biblical commentary.

Plus the reason for the Supreme Court.

I never hurts to restate the obvious in plain language, just so there's less confusion and "alternate interpretations"

[voxwoman]

Actually, 2 should be the last thing ("hereby" is a conclusion, so it should be stated last).

And you don't really have a list of "atrocities" that you are responding to (item 7)

the last statement in the manifesto would be more powerful like this:

"We hereby disavow, and categorically reject the practice of all coerced or non-consensual sexual acts, especially when they are labeled as a part of our religious practice or our religious traditions. Further, we condemnation absolutely any and all acts of sexual coercion and sexual violence perpetrated by religious teachers or performed in the name of our religions."

[sara_super_id]

I am happy this is being created. I think at the very least it would be a good confirmation for victims and potential victims that this is not a part of authentic pagan practice. That a person's body is already divine and does not need to be made divine by coercive sexual acts. I think the language is too technical and might be less helpful to children and teens who are victims. However, I am sure many summarized and simplified versions will spread around once this is settled on. I think we do need this, or something like it all over the place. So that anytime someone feels victimized, they can feel safe going to other pagans to ask for help--they won't believe it is part of the path and that they won't be able to find help

[sara_super_id]

And pretty much any other neo-pagan publisher too. But since you can pick up their books at most big box stores and libraries, it would be a helpful resource for teens. What if the newest versions of all the Teenage Witch books had a statement like this in there, with a few contact numbers for help lines that are secular or pagan friendly?

[fleacircus]

Publishing may be too optimistic, unless people are willing to print out pamphlets and set them around their local libraries and new age stores. However, I think the fact that this will be out there on the internet at the very least is excellent. One of the best things to happen to this would be to have it on predominant websites, like the top ten Google hits for Wicca/Pagan/Druid/whatever search term a teen newbie would use.

(I'm just remembering all those awful fluffy Geocities sites I would read when I was first getting into all this-- what if this was right next to the Rede and the spell to change your eye color?)

[sara_super_id]

That would be awesome! I think at the very least, some of the writers of new teen witch books might be influenced to include something along those lines in their books. I am sure fluffy neopagan authors would be just as disgusted by sexual abuse and want to help prevent it the majority of the pagan community. I know that some high profile authors like Phylis Currot have experienced sexual harassment themselves.

[call_me_harmony]

This.

I am a pagan and yet reading that first sentence I felt excluded from the group as I am not a druid, wiccan, witch shaman or loremaster

[smarriveurr]

Ayep. I wouldn't even accept that last change. If it's going to be an inclusive statement... well, it'll have about the teeth and consistency of the communique from the Unitarian Jihad... but it should also be generic and not specific.

"We are pagans, people from many traditions and hearths and paths. We have no common religion, practice, belief, or faith, but with the other civilized people of the world, we stand together on this: the condemnation of sexual coercion, violence, and abuse."

Then, after that, as others have pointed out, it trips over the fact that all pagans don't hold that the body is a manifestation of the divine or a home of the divine presence, with or without implications for human sexuality and sexual identity. Many hold sexual exploitation as an affront to human dignity, without having to get the divine involved, and feel that that should be enough of an affront, regardless of whether a sense of bodily identity is in fact something you hold dear... maybe abusing any position of authority or power to exploit

[originalpuck]

This.

[ragnvaeig]

As someone above noted, not all of us accept the body as divine. I would accept the right of the individual to security of person, as is outlined in the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, but not the body as divine, because my paganism doesn't swing that way.

There's also no discussion of what will actually be done to combat sexual exploitation. Without some kind of listed consequences--e.g. legal prosecution within whatever jurisdiction is applicable, ostracism from the community--I don't think there's much force behind a statement like this, and there is no clear plan for how to proceed when abusive behaviours are identified. General principles are nice and all, but I'm not convinced this statement will have any discernible effect on any segment of the pagan community.

[sara_super_id]

I agree! I think there should be resources for victims including how to find an attorney that is pagan friendly.

[pinkpolarity]

There's also no discussion of what will actually be done to combat sexual exploitation. Without some kind of listed consequences--e.g. legal prosecution within whatever jurisdiction is applicable, ostracism from the community--I don't think there's much force behind a statement like thisYeah, I agree with this. OTOH, I think the statement does have value on its own, though. Just seeing "coercion" mentioned is a victory to me since so many would discount it. I would have felt very empowered had I read this as a new Pagan, my healing from rape-by-coercion (which didn't happen in a religious context, but knowing that the religion I've chosen says "that wasn't okay" matters) might have gone very differently if I'd read this way back when. There's something to be said for simply knowing that the wider community of your religion doesn't condone this

[elfwreck]

There's also no discussion of what will actually be done to combat sexual exploitation.Still being discussed at Brendan's forum. There's nothing resembling consensus, and it's hard to talk about, considering how many different traditions & local communities are involved