Pagan ethics statement project

[elfwreck]

In response to a couple of recent abuse cases, some Pagans are working to make a "Pagans against sexual abuse" statement, either for the media or for the internal Pagan community or both. Background info is available at The Wild Hunt blog.

Author Brendan Myers volunteered to host the discussion and created a subforum for related topics. The

Comments

[fleacircus]

As far as the body-as-divine goes, (since there seem to be issues with that) perhaps calling the body worthy of respect and well-treatment, but that sounds a tad stuffy. Perhaps, in less loosey-goosey language: the body should be celebrated, not demeaned and subjugated by acts of violence. But I also don't want to use "demeaned" or a similar word (diminish/disgrace/degraded are the only other ones I can think of, but I am very tired). I think the word choice could be better since I don't want to imply that survivors have been demeaned in anyway-- they're probably getting that from everywhere else.

I wish I could edit

[fleacircus]

"The body should be celebrated, not subjugated to acts of violence" is more precise, I think.

I almost want to add a little more sex positivity in there, but I'm not sure how. Maybe how sex acts are delightful if consensual? I don't know. I haven't slept for over twenty-four hours, so maybe something will come to me later once I've slept.

Re: I wish I could edit

[ulfrslady]

What if someone wants to be subjugated by acts of violence? What if that has strong spiritual significance to them?

Re: I wish I could edit

[fleacircus]

Then they find someone or someones who is or are willing to subjugate them to acts of violence and they talk about what they want (it doesn't have to be formal or long and drawn out, just a "fuck me 'til I bleed" or whatever). In The Realm of the Senses Abe killed her lover eventually, but he told her not to stop and she seemed perfectly happy about the whole thing, which is... I don't want to say fine by me, but I understand it at least.

(I have mentioned I'm not that good with words, and that probably wasn't quite what I was after anyway.)

[sara_super_id]

I think we don't even need to get into what is good and okay. Lets just say what is wrong, I think we can all agree on this:

We the communities of pagans, wiccans, witches,, druids, heathens, shamans and lore masters condemn sexual abuse, rape, and sexual coercion. We encourage victims to seek help by contacting other pagans in the greater community, seeking legal assistance, seeking counseling assistance and reporting sexual crimes to the authorities.

The rest is all extra. The basics are: Sexual abuse, assault and harassment are illegal and we condemn such acts. Here's how you can get help if you are a victim.

The more flowery language we add the more confusing it gets.

[ulfrslady]

I think the order is mixed up. If, say, one of my children was abused by a religious leader, my concerns would be 1) physical assistance - doctor, ER, whatever seems necessary; 2) mental/emotional assistance - counselor; 3) legal assistance - police, lawyer, advocate; 4) warning or contacting others who might come into contact with the perpetrator, to include any sort of congregation they might be affiliated with.

[sara_super_id]

Perfect. I definitely think this needs to be included in the statement.

[brock_tn]

I reread the current draft as elfwreck has posted it, in the light of people's comments in this thread, and then produced the following

[mythworker]

You should post your revision to the forum when you get a chance Brock. I'd really appreciate it. The more people giving input, the better.

[brock_tn]

I'll be happy to, when I get some "Free Time." Right now, about the only place I've got much slack in the schedule is the hours I'm supposedly using for sleep. Will try to post it over there this evening.

[brock_tn]

Made a post over at Brendan's site. In the new "Second Draft" thread.

We'll see how it is received.

[jeweledvixen]

You can release this statement, or a similar statement if you like, but I have some serious reservations about it. I agree with much of what ulfrslady has already said.

I am not comfortable with any group that decides to speak for all Pagans. "Pagan" is too broad a term and encompasses too many different paths and viewpoints to be represented by one small group. There is no universal Pagan church/order/body that governs all Pagans everywhere.

Along that line, I also don't consider the body to be a manifestation of the divine. I am sure there are just as many Pagans who don't as there are those who do. So, presuming to speak for all Pagans falls apart right off the bat.

Therefore, I disagree with #1,3,4 and 7. #2, 5 and 6 are also speaking for all Pagans everywhere. While I agree with the sentiments behind these three statements, you cannot be sure all Pagans everywhere do. ulfrslady doesn't agree with #2. She also dislikes the wording of #5 and 6, as do I

[smarriveurr]

I really don't think a statement like this is necessary. Anyone with a lick of sense knows that 99.9% of all people everywhere are against sexual abuse. Those who don't believe this will not be persuaded otherwise by a simple statement that they probably won't even see anyway.

More or less my position. Anyone who's going to believe that all pagans are child abusers and sexual predators because of the inevitable scandals isn't going to be swayed by a group putting out an "ethics statement" to the contrary - even if that statement miraculously managed to actually encompass the myriad views of the Pagan Discontinuity* as a whole. Fact is, everyone with a lick of common sense knows reasonable people don't approve of sexual abuse. People without that lick of common sense aren't going to give a damn about this statement after someone abuses another person in the name of his religion.

When I was nominally a Christian, I didn't feel a need to publicly repudiate every dumbass who used that religious basis to support racism, homophobia,

[tosk]

Well, its ok as such things go... but I'm not sure that it will accomplish anything positive. It seems too vague (and yet too specific in some areas) to get "all pagans" on board. It's not going to stop the scum that use "Teaching" to trick people into compromising situations. Its not gonna stop the abuse.

It seems unlikely to me that the media will quote this alongside reports on Pagan abuse stories. After all, "Pagan Abuses Child" will sell much better than "Rogue Pagan Abuses Child, Pagan Community Condemns His Behavior". Though I could see some detractors pointing to this "Their sexual abuse problems are SO BAD that they had to make a disclaimer!!!"

I'm all for the spirit of the thing, but I have to wonder what the actual effect will be.

[smarriveurr]

Though I could see some detractors pointing to this "Their sexual abuse problems are SO BAD that they had to make a disclaimer!!!"

This is pretty much the result I'd anticipate. "Pagans gather to release statement condemning sexual abuse epidemic in their ranks." It's playing against a criminal minority that doesn't deserve to dominate the message - but scandal and sensationalism will definitely have the home court advantage in the media. There's no real "win" in this scenario, just ways of not losing as badly, and I think the best is not to play.

[theadydal]

You have got to remember that this is being coloured/prompted due to the current situation in Ireland about clerical sexual abuse.

Most of the churches and religions over here are making sure they have a stated policy which is pubically accessible. So there is pressure on for Paganism to ape their ways and become 'respectable'.

Personally given the majority cultural christian ethos, thats just not possible and while those who are looking at drawing up such a policy are well intended I think is going to cause more trouble then it's worth.

Whats wrong with just don't break the fecking law.

[smarriveurr]

I could see it being a natural outgrowth from the Ryan Report and so on. Frankly, given the Vatican response (ranging, as far as I can tell, from "none" to "the modern world is so complicated and confusing, that's to blame, I tell you"), adding "Sexual abuse is bad and we don't condone it, we'll comply with law enforcement to root it out." to the bottom of whatever information you've already published would put most groups ahead of the Church.

Either way, if a meaningful group of pagans (a tradition, a kindred, a lineage, what-have-you) want to come up with such a statement, more power to them, they can do so meaningfully. "Pagans" can't.

Personally given the majority cultural christian ethos, thats just not possible and while those who are looking at drawing up such a policy are well intended I think is going to cause more trouble then it's worth.Have to agree with this. It's rather like watching a massive greed-based corporate scandal take place, then expecting uncle Joachim at the corner store should publish his newly refined