Early 20th Century Catholic and Jewish Questions

[nyxelestia]

I'm writing about two men from New York, starting in the Great Depression and WWII, and ending in the 21st century, and I'm trying to develop some background for them to use across two separate stories, possibly even more

Comments

[belleweather]

So, there are some big problems here with the Jewish and Romanian bits. Firstly, there was not a big Romanian Jewish population in the US prior to WWII... or, really, a big Romanian population. Romanians did not and do not immigrate to the states in enormous numbers. Secondly, There are very, very few Romanian Catholics even today. The country of Romania is 85% Romanian Orthodox, and the parts of Romania that contain nearly all the Catholics (and functionally all the Catholics outside of possibly Bucharest in your time period) weren't a part of Romania until 1919 or 1920. The practicing Catholics would likely have considered themselves to be Hungarian or Saxon, and may not have spoken Romanian, or spoken it as a second language

[nyxelestia]

The Catholic father is actually not Romanian. My story as I currently have it is that the mother came to America and met the man, a white Catholic whose family has been in America for generations, and married him here/in New York. (As such, their wedding was a civil affair, which as I understand it was the typical documentation at the time in America, even if ceremonies were still predominantly/entirely religious). The story is set in America, and while the family is of Romanian descent, they never really go back to Romania. (Bucky never sets foot in Romania until the 21st century, and for a mission, not personal travel

[nyxelestia]

He does learn Hebrew, and it was a difficult and often-times emotional process for him, mostly as my mechanism for giving him strong emotional ties to the language

[duckodeath]

The only conversion Bucky has is being converted to Catholicism by being baptized. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned he's now a Catholic (conversion of the Jews -- forced or otherwise -- being a big part of Catholic tradition at least in Western Europe until fairly recently), but as far as Judaism is concerned since his mother is Jewish, he's still as Jewish as he ever was. Steve's a gentile, Bucky never is. Like michelel72 says below, he can choose to be more observant, but it has nothing to with conversion to Judaism since his Jewishness is absolutely inherent.

I would think if Bucky was a baptized Catholic raised as a Catholic with a Jewish mother, I would think a big part of his struggle with his faith would be reconciling it with the official Catholic doctrine of the time that ALL Jews were collectively guilty of killing Christ -- as in still equally guilty in the present (1930s) day -- and had been rejected by God for the murder. (This was not repudiated by the Catholic Church until 1965).

Even if he had been

[lilacsigil]

I keep seeing the "Irish-speaking" thing coming up, but it's unlikely that Steve's parents would have spoken any Irish, even if they were first-generation immigrants. Irish language use had declined tremendously since the Great Famine for a number of demographic, historical and colonial reasons. It's particularly unlikely if they were urban.

[alextiefling]

This. My Irish ancestors arrived in England during the Great Famine, and I don't think they were Irish speakers. Fifty years later, it would be very unusual indeed. The Gaeltachta are small and isolated.

[nyxelestia]

I know it's unlikely, but as far as I understand, it's at least possible. In particular, I got the impression that it was often seen as an anti-British/anti-imperial thing (and a lot of my research was particular to Dublin, which apparently had a dialect of Irish that was kind of reflective of two other dialects). So at the very least, it's possible that Steve's mother would know Irish, and she might have taught him.

I actually have a vague plan that she learned Irish as a type of anti-British defiance, and for Steve - a character known for defiance against "bullies"/powers bigger than himself - his first experience with learning to always stand up to bullies is learning Irish. I assume that's unlikely or unusual, but I just want to know if it's at least possible.

[philo7]

I have to agree with lilacsigil, I'm always a bit bemused by the 'Irish speaking' thing. My Dad was born in a tiny rural parish in Wicklow in 1914, six years before Steve Rogers was born, and I never heard him speak a word of Irish. I grew up with Irish relatives on both sides, stayed with some in Dublin as a child - I've never heard Irish spoken by any of them.

Also, learning Irish to represent standing up to bullies/anti British defiance thing - seems odd to me. When war broke out, my father joined the British army. By this point, several of his brothers and sisters had come to live in England - there was no animosity.

Also, if I could add a further comment:

You say, "The story is that he spent his life praying to his father's god for his best friend's health and safety, and was never sure if the continued illness was proof God was ignoring him, or if the fact his friend was still alive despite so many illnesses was proof God was answering him. When he ships out to the European Theater, he tries praying to his mother's god for

[alextiefling]

I don't think anyone who was even an occasionally observant Catholic would be accepted for a Bar Mitzah. 'Bar Mitzvah' literally means 'a son of the Commandment', and carries an expectation that the participant is going to be faithfully observant Jew. A Catholic of the appropriate age would probably already have had First Communion, and might well be preparing for Confirmation. This, in turn, would involve professing the Catholic catechism, which is intrinsically at odds with the content of a Bar Mitzvah.

[nyxelestia]

I kind of gathered that. I figured I might as well make sure, as most of my familiarity with Judaism comes from secular Jews, anyway. It's not always clear to me what traditions are specifically spiritual or religious, and what are just cultural with little expectation of actual faith/piety.

Though isn't Confirmation typically a late-teens thing? Most of the ones I've known seemed to do it in high school, and I have friends in college who still haven't Confirmed.

[green_grrl]

A quick Google says that it has varied over time, and is now, actually going much younger. I did find this:

"Pope Pius X carried a special devotion to the Eucharist, and in 1910, he allowed children to celebrate their first Communion as soon as they were able. He interpreted this “age of discretion” as 7, Martos said.

“So it becomes standard practice to have baptism at birth, first Communion at 7 or 8, and confirmation sometime after that, maybe 10 or 12,” Martos said. [through the Vatican Council of the '60s]"

It was 13 at my parish in the 1970s, and was seen very much the same way as a bar mitzvah-that you had reached a traditional maturity milestone (puberty) in the eyes of your faith, versus secular maturity at 18.

[nyxelestia]

Good to know! (For the story where Bucky was Jewish all his life, I might have him having his bar mitzvah at the same time as Steve had his confirmation...hm...)

[donutsweeper]

Sorry, but I think your best bet is to go with artistic license here. Interfaith marriages were ridiculously rare then and religious observation/education was very different than it is now. As for #3- sorry, definitely not happening. Cemeteries were (and still are) VERY segregated. Brooklyn Jews then were either buried in Mount Hebron, Mount Lebanon or Mount Zion (depending on where their burial society had plots) and to keep their certification to bury Jews they have to follow strict rules, including not burring someone of a different faith.

Regarding dogtags it wasn't uncommon for Jews to NOT get the H stamp as long as they could pass as something else. Usually they went with a P and made sure their buddies knew what kind of last rites they'd want (googling will bring up numerous articles about it) I know of my grandfather and his brothers (all Brooklyn boys born in the 1910s) only one had the H stamped on their dogtags.

[nyxelestia]

How much artistic license? I know that interfaith marriages were rare - hence why I brought up that it was a problem for the character, back then. I'm just trying to toe the line between "rare" and "never happened" - or "offensive"/not possible because of religious law (that is actually observed - one of my biggest problems is that my own familiarity with Judaism comes from secular Jews, so I'm not sure rituals or practices are just cultural traditions, and which ones are religious/spiritual and meant to be about faith rather than heritage

[michelel72]

Three quick things:

- If his mother is Jewish, he almost certainly wouldn't "convert" to Judaism in the sense one would "convert" to Christianity. He's Jewish by birth; he's observant or he isn't, but I'd be very wary of using the term "convert" to indicate embracing Judaism over a Catholic upbringing. (I have a friend who did "convert" to Judaism; depending on the community, that can be a fraught topic.)

- Becoming bar mitzvah basically just means he reaches the age of 13 and thereby becomes responsible for his actions. The ceremony that most modern folks use the term "have a bar mitzvah" for is a religious demonstration of training in and understanding of the religion, I think typically by expounding on a section of the Torah mapped to the now-a-man's date of birth (double-check that rather than relying on me). And then, in many communities, an associated party.

- Under US law, "Next of Kin" has a specific legal definition; it's not someone you just pick out of affection. (This is apparently different from the laws/customs

[michelel72]

Clarification: By "responsible for his actions", I mean specifically in a religious sense -- whether he follows the various requirements/expectations/commandments outlined for a Jewish man. Here's a 101-level link on the topic; it makes my points on this topic much more clearly and succinctly.

[nyxelestia]

-Sounds like the kind of stuff I keep hearing my own Hindu relatives. -_- If Bucky were embracing Catholic practices, though, would he still be considered Jewish? I know there's a lot of controversy about converting to Judaism, whether people can convert, etc. - but for someone of an interfaith parentage, how would that apply?

-Duly noted!

-Fuck, I forgot that. *headdesk* I don't suppose there's a single term to encompass emergency contact, medical proxy, and beneficiary/heir? For some reason, I remembered to have a ton of paperwork involved in establishing the Barnes' descendent as all of those for Steve, yet I kept using NOK-terminology. D: Probably just as well you caught me on this now - the subplot about people freaking out about a "random teenager" inheriting something pretty damn important to him is coming up soon in my story, I'll have to remember to use the correct terminology from now on.

[michelel72]

If Bucky were embracing Catholic practices, though, would he still be considered Jewish?

Judaism is matrilineal. His mother was Jewish, he's Jewish, end of.**

(** Everything religious has caveats; there may be very small communities/traditions that would debate the point, but for your purposes: He's Jewish.)

Doesn't matter what other faiths/practices he dabbles in or swears to or whatever; he was born to it, and he either adheres to what he's "supposed" to do or he doesn't.

As my Conservative-ish friends tell it, badly filtered through my memory (= check this somewhere if you decide to rely on it), most forms of Judaism are enjoined to discourage converts. By which they mean people-not-born-to-Jewish-mothers-who-want-to-"become"-Jewish-anyway. There's strife in several communities about whether conversions into Judaism from outside are valid or sufficient or possible, etc. But none of that applies to Bucky; he can't "convert" to what he already is