Early 20th Century Catholic and Jewish Questions

[nyxelestia]

I'm writing about two men from New York, starting in the Great Depression and WWII, and ending in the 21st century, and I'm trying to develop some background for them to use across two separate stories, possibly even more

Comments

[belleweather]

So, there are some big problems here with the Jewish and Romanian bits. Firstly, there was not a big Romanian Jewish population in the US prior to WWII... or, really, a big Romanian population. Romanians did not and do not immigrate to the states in enormous numbers. Secondly, There are very, very few Romanian Catholics even today. The country of Romania is 85% Romanian Orthodox, and the parts of Romania that contain nearly all the Catholics (and functionally all the Catholics outside of possibly Bucharest in your time period) weren't a part of Romania until 1919 or 1920. The practicing Catholics would likely have considered themselves to be Hungarian or Saxon, and may not have spoken Romanian, or spoken it as a second language.

Your Bucky would be considered Jewish because his mother was Jewish, but I do not think its realistic, espeically in the interwar period, to think that they Jewush community would be welcoming to him if he professed a belief in Jesus and went to Catholic church. A Bar Mitzvah, even at his request, is probably right out. Also, Bar Mitzvah isn't like a baptism... he would have to spend a great deal of time learning to read Hebrew and learning the prayers and customs and convincing the Rabbi that he takes the responsibilities of being a Jewish adult seriously, which would include things like keepin a kosher home, circumcision (if that wasn't done at birth), mitzvahs and holidays. fRom your character description, I don't see that. His mother would probably still be welcome in thr community, but would be looked down on and probably feel like an outsider if she wasnt keeping a jewish home and raising jewish children. In general, the family would probably feel more comfortable and welcomed in the Catholic church.

As far as Jewish traditions, Romania is very much a mixed bag. If your family is from the north of Romania, maybe look at the contemporary Satmar communiities? Satu Mare is in the north of current Romania, although it was in Hungary during much of the interwar period. Otherwise, you have some leeway here... Prior to the war, Romania had a large Jewish community and it was a mix of early Sephardi migrants from Spain to the Balkans in the 1490s through 1600s, and later
Askenazi migrants from Poland and Hungry. I can't tell you much about current wedding traditions here for Jews, because there are very few and are and aging community, so we havent been to any weddings.

As far as the interfaith marriage, I think you would have to have a compelling reason why his parents fell in love and why one of them didn't convert. Interfaith marriages were rare at that time (and still are, somewhat, in Romania according to the 2011 religious census.) and the wedding would have been a civil wedding done at the courthouse, presuming that had been introduced in the early 20th C. (It is common practice now, but I suspect that was an addition during communist times, and that prior to that only recognized religions could preform marriage ceremonies and the state stayed out if it. I can ask about this if you are really curious.) Otherwise, they likely would have been out of luck, because neither the Catholics nor the Rabbi at that time would have married an interfaith couple.

Sorry for the typos, iPads suck.

[nyxelestia]

The Catholic father is actually not Romanian. My story as I currently have it is that the mother came to America and met the man, a white Catholic whose family has been in America for generations, and married him here/in New York. (As such, their wedding was a civil affair, which as I understand it was the typical documentation at the time in America, even if ceremonies were still predominantly/entirely religious). The story is set in America, and while the family is of Romanian descent, they never really go back to Romania. (Bucky never sets foot in Romania until the 21st century, and for a mission, not personal travel.)

I kind of figured the Catholic Bucky getting a Bar Mitzvah was a long shot, but I figured I would ask (most of my familiarity with Judaism comes from secular Judaism, with a lot of my research getting cribbed from Interfaith family websites, but those are obviously geared towards present day families). I was kind of trying to aim for a situation in which Bucky struggles with his faith early on in life, at least trying to learn or participate in both for a slew of personal reasons. He leaned Catholic for most of his life as he grew up that way, his father was Catholic, and his best friend was Catholic, but around war time, he converts.

The story is that he spent his life praying to his father's god for his best friend's health and safety, and was never sure if the continued illness was proof God was ignoring him, or if the fact his friend was still alive despite so many illnesses was proof God was answering him. When he ships out to the European Theater, he tries praying to his mother's god for Steve. Next time he sees Steve, Steve's a supersoldier and ostensibly the healthiest human being on the planet (Bucky sees this as "God being a cheeky asshole"). The idea I'm trying to aim for is that the war is what pushes him over the edge in what has actually been a lifelong struggle with his faith.

Even if he does not have a bar mitzvah, what kind of participation in other holidays can he expect? I know Yom Kippur is out, but what about Rosh Hashanah and Passover? I've gotten the impression that while they can't participate in all parts of it, gentiles are welcome at Seder dinners (I got invited to one in high school, though I didn't go). I know the new year is supposed to be a pre-Yom Kippur thing, but how much of it is contingent on already being Jewish, and how much of it might a gentile be welcome in? (And these are questions predominantly in relation to synagogues or community events - inside the home, the character's mother strove to keep her son involved even when he hadn't converted, and the Irish-Catholic friend was a constant presence even though he never participated in any rituals, just watched from the sidelines.).

I'm actually surprised to hear that his family would be more accepted in the Catholic Church. Wasn't it much more anti-Semitic than it is today prior to WWII?

[nyxelestia]

He does learn Hebrew, and it was a difficult and often-times emotional process for him, mostly as my mechanism for giving him strong emotional ties to the language.

The character was a brainwashed assassin for sixy to seventy years (cryogenically frozen a lot, which is why he survived so long and doesn't age much), and whenever he runs into something that had strong emotional ties for him, the brainwashing starts to break down. Being 'owned' by the Soviet Union at the time, they tried to use him in Israel/Palestine, only for the constant Hewbrew to breaking through to him, which means he cannot be used in the region anymore. (This sets a precedent that if brainwashing starts to breakdown, the organization finds out what started it and bars him from assignments utilizing that; when this happens too many times and he is barred from too many situations, he gets subject to a deeper type of brainwashing so this is no longer a problem, but now he's an empty shell with zero autonomy and limited use.)

I don't really have any concrete ideas about which part of Romania he is from. I will definitely look into the cultures mentioned and see if any of them work particularly well with the story I'm writing. I made the character of Romanian descent in the story as an actor shout-out, and partly as a precursor to some form of heritage to Latveria, a fictional Eastern European country from the comic books that is somewhere in/around the Banat (or possibly is the Banat in fictional country form, depending on how you look at it).

I know of general Catholic and Jewish wedding traditions, and already have plans to combine them. I just wanted to know if there were any notable differences, since most of my familiarity with Jewish tradition comes from secular Jews, and I didn't want to make any drastic missteps. I was also hoping for something unique about it or something that might differentiate it from Polish Jewish traditions, if anything at all, mostly as part of cute wedding-planning scene in which the two men from the post are adapting their wedding from pre-existing plans drawn up for a wedding between a Polish/Secular Jew and a Mexican Catholic. It's not necessarily a big part of the story - which is mostly secular in nature, anyway - but multiculturalism is a big theme (since both franchises/fandoms this fanfic is from have problems with whitewashing; this is my way of counteracting it). Also, in one of these stories, there is an additional aspect of werewolves and their wedding/mating traditions (somewhat Pagan in nature, though adapted to weddings of all religions), so I want to have a really clear idea of what a human interfaith wedding would look like before I throw a supernatural monkeywrench into it.

[duckodeath]

The only conversion Bucky has is being converted to Catholicism by being baptized. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned he's now a Catholic (conversion of the Jews -- forced or otherwise -- being a big part of Catholic tradition at least in Western Europe until fairly recently), but as far as Judaism is concerned since his mother is Jewish, he's still as Jewish as he ever was. Steve's a gentile, Bucky never is. Like michelel72 says below, he can choose to be more observant, but it has nothing to with conversion to Judaism since his Jewishness is absolutely inherent.

I would think if Bucky was a baptized Catholic raised as a Catholic with a Jewish mother, I would think a big part of his struggle with his faith would be reconciling it with the official Catholic doctrine of the time that ALL Jews were collectively guilty of killing Christ -- as in still equally guilty in the present (1930s) day -- and had been rejected by God for the murder. (This was not repudiated by the Catholic Church until 1965).

Even if he had been saved by being baptized, everyone would still know about his mother, especially if she never converted and was therefore doomed to hell, and even if Bucky was (for example) an alter boy who went to mass everyday, he would have had other boys calling him Jew and Christ Killer on a regular basis.

In terms of the Catholic Church, yes it was far more anti-Semitic then, but in a way that's why they would be far more welcoming of Bucky -- he had been saved and was now a son of the True Church. Although he'd probably be watched pretty closely just to make sure. His (unconverted) mother wouldn't be welcome, but Bucky would be. (At least until he started asking awkward questions instead of just reciting his catechism like a good boy.)

What I'm curious about is Bucky's mother. You don't say anything about whether she has any family or how religious they are. Even today there are people that are utterly shunned by their families and the community for marrying outside the faith. On the other hand, there are plenty of Jews who came from the Old Country and set about becoming Americans as fast as they could which meant assimilating to a great degree (i.e. leaving most of the traditions from the Old Country in the Old Country). There's no reason she actually has to be particularly religious in any way or even particularly interested in Jewish tradition. Yes, she might want Bucky to know something about his heritage, but by marrying a Catholic and letting her son be baptized, she's clearly already rejecting a huge of that heritage and would be as stuck between two worlds as he is.

eta: It's not impossible that Bucky learned Hebrew, but he's much more likely to have strong emotional connections with Yiddish. Jewish immigrants in America didn't speak Hebrew as an everyday language, but he would have been surrounded by an extremely vibrant culture based around Yiddish. If he read Yiddish he would almost certainly know the Hebrew alphabet, but he wouldn't speak it except for somewhat unlikely religious reasons (if he was as you say a practicing Catholic).

[nyxelestia]

What would happen if/when Bucky started asking those awkward questions? :) That the Catholic church is hostile towards "his mother's people" is definitely a big part of his faith/struggle.

I don't really have any details planned for Mrs. Barnes and her family (beyond the fact dementia runs through the family, though that's largely irrelevant here). I don't necessarily want her to be particularly devout or religious, but just setting the stage for Bucky's various crises of faith down the road. In the story where Bucky started out Catholic and later embraced Judaism, it's more about cultural reasons than religious ones (i.e. identifying as Jewish as a "fuck you" to the Nazis he's fighting). In the story where Bucky was Jewish his whole life, his father died when he was very young so he and his sisters were raised more firmly entrenched in Jewish culture and community.

I'll definitely remember the Hebrew/Yiddish thing. Languages and learning them are a running theme throughout one of the stories I'm asking these questions for, so this is definitely helpful! ^_^