Early 20th Century Catholic and Jewish Questions

[nyxelestia]

I'm writing about two men from New York, starting in the Great Depression and WWII, and ending in the 21st century, and I'm trying to develop some background for them to use across two separate stories, possibly even more

Comments

[alextiefling]

I don't think anyone who was even an occasionally observant Catholic would be accepted for a Bar Mitzah. 'Bar Mitzvah' literally means 'a son of the Commandment', and carries an expectation that the participant is going to be faithfully observant Jew. A Catholic of the appropriate age would probably already have had First Communion, and might well be preparing for Confirmation. This, in turn, would involve professing the Catholic catechism, which is intrinsically at odds with the content of a Bar Mitzvah.

[nyxelestia]

I kind of gathered that. I figured I might as well make sure, as most of my familiarity with Judaism comes from secular Jews, anyway. It's not always clear to me what traditions are specifically spiritual or religious, and what are just cultural with little expectation of actual faith/piety.

Though isn't Confirmation typically a late-teens thing? Most of the ones I've known seemed to do it in high school, and I have friends in college who still haven't Confirmed.

[green_grrl]

A quick Google says that it has varied over time, and is now, actually going much younger. I did find this:

"Pope Pius X carried a special devotion to the Eucharist, and in 1910, he allowed children to celebrate their first Communion as soon as they were able. He interpreted this “age of discretion” as 7, Martos said.

“So it becomes standard practice to have baptism at birth, first Communion at 7 or 8, and confirmation sometime after that, maybe 10 or 12,” Martos said. [through the Vatican Council of the '60s]"

It was 13 at my parish in the 1970s, and was seen very much the same way as a bar mitzvah-that you had reached a traditional maturity milestone (puberty) in the eyes of your faith, versus secular maturity at 18.

[nyxelestia]

Good to know! (For the story where Bucky was Jewish all his life, I might have him having his bar mitzvah at the same time as Steve had his confirmation...hm...)

[philo7]

Yup, totally agree with this - I had my first holy communion at 7 and was confirmed at 11, while still in primary school.

It still makes me cross - by the time I was of an age to make a proper, thoughtful decision on faith - ie, late teens - I was an agnostic. It's bad enough to be signed up for a faith at birth, but totally meaningless to have confirmation as a mass event before the age at which one can make a rational decision on it. What is the point?

[nyxelestia]

*shrugs* Beats me. Some research (and by 'research' I mean snarky commentary by Catholics and former Catholics I know) tells me that 7 years old is supposed to be the 'age of reason' in Catholicism. Which strikes me as hilarious, because how is it that a 7-year-old can't even be trusted with their own bedtime but can be trusted with their faith? :P

[philo7]

The first holy communion thing at 7 doesn't bother me, it's the confirmation at 11. It's as if they're deliberately trying to get it in before you're old enough to understand and question! It also deprives those who do consciously and sincerely come to believe, or who want to 'confirm' their faith, the opportunity of doing that as a mature adult.

[nyxelestia]

I'm an Atheist, so I assume the whole "before you're old enough to understand and question" part is intentional. I am sorry to hear that faithful Catholics are deprived of that process and experience as an adult.

[miafeliz]

Confirmation is technically the second sacrament, but because of age of discretion and all, it was moved after First Communion, so that most people being confirmed are at least junior high or high school.

I was confirmed as a baby, which was a pretty standard practice where I live, most of my peers were not. And in the Eastern Rite churches, Confirmation continues to be done at an earlier age.

[nyxelestia]

Shit, so I apparently lived in a weird bubble of older Confirmations. Since most of the Catholics I knew were Hispanic, I knew a few for whom Confirmation was something they needed to take care of before their Quincenera (15th birthday), so 13-14 is the age I associate with Confirmation.

[miafeliz]

The Quinceañera is not a sacrament nor necessarily religious. It's mostly a Mexican cultural celebration and there is often a Mass for the young girl. The norm for confirmation these days is junior high or high school, but will vary on the diocese. When I was a baby I was confirmed sometime after my baptism, then had my first communion about 3rd grade. My peers had their confirmations at 12 or 13. When I was little our diocese performed confirmations as babies but changed around the time I was born. I have older friends who were confirmed as babies and friends as teenagers.

[nyxelestia]

Oh, I know, I just mean that this is the association I have about what age major milestones are supposed to occur. Confirmation -> Quincenera or Sweet Sixteen (I have at least one friend whose Confirmation was the day he got his driver's license, which is why he looked so spiffy in his license photo :P).

...wait, isn't Confirmation supposed to be after First Communion, not before?!

[alextiefling]

First Communion is supposed to be after Confirmation - you take Communion because you're a full, 'adult' member of the church, which is what Confirmation symbolises. The custom of an earlier, 'uninitiated' First Communion is a relatively modern innovation, and specific to Roman Catholicism.