My answer to number 2 is "Yes and no." It's significant to Riley that he percieves her as having shut down so therefore it's significant altogether. But I don't think Buffy had shut down. That's Riley's flawed perspective.
I'd like to think the writers don't think it but I don't really know what they are thinking so I've gone for not sure. I hope they didn't think it though because I really don't feel it.
Ugh, Xander's speech. I've not watched the episode for a while so I've forgotten enough to make it hard for me to vote. I think it was definietely well intended and he was trying to push her into talking to Riley before he left just for closure if nothing else but I think it falls ... a bit flat and that's where the feeling of it all being Buffy's fault comes in for me.
Oh! First comment! Fair warning, you get all my THOUGHTS on this ep (and I have many!) :)
My answer to number 2 is "Yes and no." It's significant to Riley that he percieves her as having shut down so therefore it's significant altogether. But I don't think Buffy had shut down. That's Riley's flawed perspective.
Yeah, I agree. I can see that.
I'd like to think the writers don't think it but I don't really know what they are thinking so I've gone for not sure. I hope they didn't think it though because I really don't feel it.
Heh. I think they did think it mainly based on Jane Espenson's commentary on I Was Made to Love You.
Ugh, Xander's speech. I've not watched the episode for a while so I've forgotten enough to make it hard for me to vote. I think it was definietely well intended and he was trying to push her into talking to Riley before he left just for closure if nothing else but I think it falls ... a bit flat and that's where the feeling of it all being Buffy's fault comes in for me.THOUGHTS AHEAD
( ... )
Xander's speech was going well until Buffy tells him what Riley was doing. That should have completely derailed Xander's attempt to get Buffy to SEE what he saw. Instead, when Buffy tries to walk away, he forces her to listen to him as he subsequently blames Buffy for it all. That's beyond the fucking pale. Really? His response to learning that Riley was visiting vamp-whores is, "Well, Buffy, it's kinda your fault cause you were all shut down after Angel left"? Fuck that, dude.
Okay, YES THIS. It's been so long since I watched the speech that I didn't remember that this is how it went down, but: YES YES YES.
Heh. I think they did think it mainly based on Jane Espenson's commentary on I Was Made to Love You.
I should re-watch that commentary, because I just had a thought -- there is often a gap of years between the writing of an episode and the giving of the commentary, and it's just possible that Jane uses the "shut down" concept because she's recalling the dialog in the episode, rather than accurately recalling what the writers were thinking during the writing process.
Xander's speech! ARGH! It's his most assholish act of the entire series, barring the asshole speech in Entropy -- but at least everyone NOTICES he's being a dick, and he even kind of apologizes in Seeing Red. Nobody holds him accountable for the asshole speech in Into the Woods, NOBODY.
*huggles Buffy*When I was dissecting exactly why I hate this episode so much, I realized that it has almost no Willow. Because that is exactly what Willow would do. Willow would huggle Buffy even if she thought the whole damn thing was Buffy's fault, because that's what best friends do
( ... )
2 etc: Depends on how significant "significant" is. This episode is a pretty big fuckupathon on all sides and it's hard to say that one single thing was THE cause. Is there emotional shutdown on Buffy's side? Yes. Is it the one single thing that's wrong with them? Absolutely not. (Of course, Scott Hope gave the same reason for dumping Buffy back in s3, and I suppose one could argue that he was hardly shown in the best light for it...)
So for instance, I want to check most boxes both on 8 and 10 and a bunch of other questions as well; there's nothing wrong with Xander's observations as such, it's just that the conclusions he draws arerather self-involved. And both Spike's and Riley's actions in this episode earn them some pain.
I'm a little inclined to see it as an indictment of males who are more stuck in traditional sex roles -- they can't handle NOT being the most important thing in Buffy's life.
But this is one of those areas where the tension between what the character wants (Buffy's romantic angst -- she suffers on account of her mission) and what the viewer wants to see (of course the mission wins! of course the hero suffers!) creates... an interpretive complexity. Is she being punished by the story for being a woman with power, or is she being hurt by sexist social structures for being a woman with power?
But this could be why Buffy keeps ending up dating vampires, because they represent being outside of society. Spike sure doesn't care that he is less important than the mission. While Riley gets his little fee-fees hurt about it.
(Okay, maybe that was excessive Riley-snark, but really!)
I actually liked the Buffy/Riley relationship in S4. It seemed functional and healthy. Riley's sudden insecurities that "she doesn't love me" seemed to come out of nowhere. And those insecurities could have easily been put to rest if Riley had just talked to her. Granted, Buffy's never been the best communicator, but she is capable of opening up when pressed.
So, yeah, maybe Buffy was a little shut down. Or preoccupied with mom possibly dying. But that in no way absolves Riley of his infidelities/blood abuse/whatever. Or of trying to lay it all on Buffy's shoulders.
Also, stabbing Spike with plastic wood grain was just a stupid writing ploy. It would have been far more believable if Riley had just staked Spike outright. (Although, speaking as a Spike fan, I'm glad he didn't. :)
I actually liked the Buffy/Riley relationship in S4. It seemed functional and healthy.
Ditto. Though I don't know that Riley's insecurities come out of nowhere. They seem to me to be foreshadowed with S4's The Yoko Factor where Riley randomly thinks Buffy cheated on him with Angel. I don't think he ever gets over Buffy's past with Angel.
Also, stabbing Spike with plastic wood grain was just a stupid writing ploy. It would have been far more believable if Riley had just staked Spike outright. (Although, speaking as a Spike fan, I'm glad he didn't. :)
Also, stabbing Spike with plastic wood grain was just a stupid writing ploy. It would have been far more believable if Riley had just staked Spike outright. (Although, speaking as a Spike fan, I'm glad he didn't. :)
Agreed, on all counts. It was just a way to give the episode a "shocking!" act break, while ignoring the fact that the very existence of a plastic wood grain stake makes no sense whatsoever. Where did Riley get it at, The Stake Store (Serving Both Your Real and Fake Stake Needs Since 1982)?
Where did Riley get it at, The Stake Store (Serving Both Your Real and Fake Stake Needs Since 1982)?
Surely there's a market for it in Sunnydale? Between all the various magic shops, demon bars, etc... The forces of darkness need silly novelty items too.
I think Xander's speech is both well-intended and insulting. I'm not sure how I manage to believe both of those, but I do. On the one hand, I do think Xander was trying to help (even if he was definitely projecting his and Anya's issues onto Buffy/Riley), but on the other hand, I do think he was acting like he had insight that he definitely didn't have to such an extent that it was insulting.
As to how the writers actually feel about all of this? I have no clue. I could argue multiple ways.
There's no doubt that Riley was a douche to blame all the problems on Buffy. Gross. But I also think that the downfall of this relationship was a lack of communication on both their parts--a lack of communication about what they both expect from a relationship. It's okay for Riley to want to be with someone who is more emotionally open with him and who makes him more of a priority. But he has to realize that that's not Buffy and he can't expect her to be that way, especially if he doesn't actually tell her that that's what he wants. On
( ... )
Buffy was dealing with a LOT right then. Her relationship was going to suffer at that time with anyone. A good relationship would have helped, supported her, gave to her and been her rock so she could deal with the other stuff. A bad relationship is greedy and wants to be a priority even though everything else in your life is falling apart. The Vamp whores were just the insulting and devastating icing on the cake. Xander did her a terrible disservice, albeit well-intentioned. Not sure how the writers felt, it probably differed from writer to writer just like everything else! It was pretty bad how Spike showed her, but I'm not sure how else he should have let her know. She needed to know and I don't think he would have believed her just telling him. Maybe he should have told Giles instead. But you know, it's Spike! I gave this episode a one, because the helicopter run is one of the worst character moments for Buffy in the television show.
Buffy was dealing with a LOT right then. Her relationship was going to suffer at that time with anyone. A good relationship would have helped, supported her, gave to her and been her rock so she could deal with the other stuff. A bad relationship is greedy and wants to be a priority even though everything else in your life is falling apart.
*nods*
It was pretty bad how Spike showed her, but I'm not sure how else he should have let her know. She needed to know and I don't think he would have believed her just telling him. Maybe he should have told Giles instead. But you know, it's Spike!
Yeah, I hesitated on this one because I'm not sure how else Spike could have told her. I mean, bad at him for being all creepy stalker dude in the first place, but once he knows, I think it's a good thing for her to let Buffy know (even if his motives aren't so pure).
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I'd like to think the writers don't think it but I don't really know what they are thinking so I've gone for not sure. I hope they didn't think it though because I really don't feel it.
Ugh, Xander's speech. I've not watched the episode for a while so I've forgotten enough to make it hard for me to vote. I think it was definietely well intended and he was trying to push her into talking to Riley before he left just for closure if nothing else but I think it falls ... a bit flat and that's where the feeling of it all being Buffy's fault comes in for me.
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My answer to number 2 is "Yes and no." It's significant to Riley that he percieves her as having shut down so therefore it's significant altogether. But I don't think Buffy had shut down. That's Riley's flawed perspective.
Yeah, I agree. I can see that.
I'd like to think the writers don't think it but I don't really know what they are thinking so I've gone for not sure. I hope they didn't think it though because I really don't feel it.
Heh. I think they did think it mainly based on Jane Espenson's commentary on I Was Made to Love You.
Ugh, Xander's speech. I've not watched the episode for a while so I've forgotten enough to make it hard for me to vote. I think it was definietely well intended and he was trying to push her into talking to Riley before he left just for closure if nothing else but I think it falls ... a bit flat and that's where the feeling of it all being Buffy's fault comes in for me.THOUGHTS AHEAD ( ... )
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Okay, YES THIS. It's been so long since I watched the speech that I didn't remember that this is how it went down, but: YES YES YES.
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I should re-watch that commentary, because I just had a thought -- there is often a gap of years between the writing of an episode and the giving of the commentary, and it's just possible that Jane uses the "shut down" concept because she's recalling the dialog in the episode, rather than accurately recalling what the writers were thinking during the writing process.
Xander's speech! ARGH! It's his most assholish act of the entire series, barring the asshole speech in Entropy -- but at least everyone NOTICES he's being a dick, and he even kind of apologizes in Seeing Red. Nobody holds him accountable for the asshole speech in Into the Woods, NOBODY.
*huggles Buffy*When I was dissecting exactly why I hate this episode so much, I realized that it has almost no Willow. Because that is exactly what Willow would do. Willow would huggle Buffy even if she thought the whole damn thing was Buffy's fault, because that's what best friends do ( ... )
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So for instance, I want to check most boxes both on 8 and 10 and a bunch of other questions as well; there's nothing wrong with Xander's observations as such, it's just that the conclusions he draws arerather self-involved. And both Spike's and Riley's actions in this episode earn them some pain.
Eh. Don't like this episode much.
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That's a great way of phrasing it.
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Yeah, it is rather...ya know.
Like your thoughts.
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I'm a little inclined to see it as an indictment of males who are more stuck in traditional sex roles -- they can't handle NOT being the most important thing in Buffy's life.
But this is one of those areas where the tension between what the character wants (Buffy's romantic angst -- she suffers on account of her mission) and what the viewer wants to see (of course the mission wins! of course the hero suffers!) creates... an interpretive complexity. Is she being punished by the story for being a woman with power, or is she being hurt by sexist social structures for being a woman with power?
But this could be why Buffy keeps ending up dating vampires, because they represent being outside of society. Spike sure doesn't care that he is less important than the mission. While Riley gets his little fee-fees hurt about it.
(Okay, maybe that was excessive Riley-snark, but really!)
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So, yeah, maybe Buffy was a little shut down. Or preoccupied with mom possibly dying. But that in no way absolves Riley of his infidelities/blood abuse/whatever. Or of trying to lay it all on Buffy's shoulders.
Also, stabbing Spike with plastic wood grain was just a stupid writing ploy. It would have been far more believable if Riley had just staked Spike outright. (Although, speaking as a Spike fan, I'm glad he didn't. :)
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Ditto. Though I don't know that Riley's insecurities come out of nowhere. They seem to me to be foreshadowed with S4's The Yoko Factor where Riley randomly thinks Buffy cheated on him with Angel. I don't think he ever gets over Buffy's past with Angel.
Also, stabbing Spike with plastic wood grain was just a stupid writing ploy. It would have been far more believable if Riley had just staked Spike outright. (Although, speaking as a Spike fan, I'm glad he didn't. :)
Haha! But they needed a dramatic act closer! :)
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Agreed, on all counts. It was just a way to give the episode a "shocking!" act break, while ignoring the fact that the very existence of a plastic wood grain stake makes no sense whatsoever. Where did Riley get it at, The Stake Store (Serving Both Your Real and Fake Stake Needs Since 1982)?
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Surely there's a market for it in Sunnydale? Between all the various magic shops, demon bars, etc... The forces of darkness need silly novelty items too.
I'm convinced there's a 24-hour leather pants boutique for the recently evil, myself.
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As to how the writers actually feel about all of this? I have no clue. I could argue multiple ways.
There's no doubt that Riley was a douche to blame all the problems on Buffy. Gross. But I also think that the downfall of this relationship was a lack of communication on both their parts--a lack of communication about what they both expect from a relationship. It's okay for Riley to want to be with someone who is more emotionally open with him and who makes him more of a priority. But he has to realize that that's not Buffy and he can't expect her to be that way, especially if he doesn't actually tell her that that's what he wants. On ( ... )
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Basically, this was a breakup that needed to happen, but the way it went down was douche-y and I hate it.
Word.
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Yeah. I expect angsty, but I hated the douche-y.
In fact, I could almost fix the whole thing if I rewrite the "you're not letting me in" scene between Buffy and Riley, and the Xander speech.
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The Vamp whores were just the insulting and devastating icing on the cake.
Xander did her a terrible disservice, albeit well-intentioned.
Not sure how the writers felt, it probably differed from writer to writer just like everything else!
It was pretty bad how Spike showed her, but I'm not sure how else he should have let her know. She needed to know and I don't think he would have believed her just telling him. Maybe he should have told Giles instead. But you know, it's Spike!
I gave this episode a one, because the helicopter run is one of the worst character moments for Buffy in the television show.
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*nods*
It was pretty bad how Spike showed her, but I'm not sure how else he should have let her know. She needed to know and I don't think he would have believed her just telling him. Maybe he should have told Giles instead. But you know, it's Spike!
Yeah, I hesitated on this one because I'm not sure how else Spike could have told her. I mean, bad at him for being all creepy stalker dude in the first place, but once he knows, I think it's a good thing for her to let Buffy know (even if his motives aren't so pure).
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