2 etc: Depends on how significant "significant" is. This episode is a pretty big fuckupathon on all sides and it's hard to say that one single thing was THE cause. Is there emotional shutdown on Buffy's side? Yes. Is it the one single thing that's wrong with them? Absolutely not. (Of course, Scott Hope gave the same reason for dumping Buffy back in s3, and I suppose one could argue that he was hardly shown in the best light for it...)
So for instance, I want to check most boxes both on 8 and 10 and a bunch of other questions as well; there's nothing wrong with Xander's observations as such, it's just that the conclusions he draws arerather self-involved. And both Spike's and Riley's actions in this episode earn them some pain.
I'm a little inclined to see it as an indictment of males who are more stuck in traditional sex roles -- they can't handle NOT being the most important thing in Buffy's life.
But this is one of those areas where the tension between what the character wants (Buffy's romantic angst -- she suffers on account of her mission) and what the viewer wants to see (of course the mission wins! of course the hero suffers!) creates... an interpretive complexity. Is she being punished by the story for being a woman with power, or is she being hurt by sexist social structures for being a woman with power?
But this could be why Buffy keeps ending up dating vampires, because they represent being outside of society. Spike sure doesn't care that he is less important than the mission. While Riley gets his little fee-fees hurt about it.
(Okay, maybe that was excessive Riley-snark, but really!)
Spike sure doesn't care that he is less important than the mission. I'm not so sure? His words to Wood in Lies My Parents Told Me sound resentful and suggest he really does care
( ... )
I'm not so sure? His words to Wood in Lies My Parents Told Me sound resentful and suggest he really does care.
Okay, I guess we had opposite interpretations of that speech. I saw it as Spike telling Robin that Robin felt that way -- that he had carried around this grudge toward the vampire who killed his mother that was at least partly a grudge toward his mother.
's certainly not true that people that Buffy loves matter to her less than the mission
Well, no, not when that person is Dawn. But she did kill Angel to save the world, in a hugely defining character moment. Then she couldn't bring herself to do the same with Dawn -- because Dawn was family? Or because Dawn was an innocent? Would she have sacrificed her mother? Or Willow or Xander? I don't think she knows. So I don't think we know. But it's an interesting question.
I don't think Riley is comparing himself to the mission
I don't think Riley consciously thinks he resents the mission. I just read things like "you're not letting me in" or "you don't want me the way I want
( ... )
Okay, I guess we had opposite interpretations of that speech. I saw it as Spike telling Robin that Robin felt that way -- that he had carried around this grudge toward the vampire who killed his mother that was at least partly a grudge toward his mother.
ROBIN You took my childhood. You took her away. She was all I had. She was my world. SPIKE And you weren't hers. Doesn't that piss you off? ROBIN Shut up. You didn't know her. SPIKE I know Slayers. No matter how many people they've got around them, they fight alone. Life of the Chosen One. The rest of us be damned. Your mother was no different.
There's just one Slayer Spike knows. I wonder who he could be talking about here?
Well, no, not when that person is Dawn. But she did kill Angel to save the world, in a hugely defining character moment.It's not like she had a choice, is it? If she hadn't sent Angel to hell, the whole world was going to be sucked into hell, together with Angel. (Because "he's in the world", as Spike would say.) As long as there was still a choice (before
( ... )
I know Slayers. No matter how many people they've got around them, they fight alone. Life of the Chosen One. The rest of us be damned. Your mother was no different.
Right -- Spike observes it, I just don't think he's particularly bothered by it. He seems more in awe of it. But that's part of my pro-Spike argument: for all his faults, he's able to accept Buffy on her own terms in a way Riley couldn't.
With that kind of history and trauma she carries with her, the idea that there's something wrong with Buffy for supposedly putting the mission first is all the more jarring.
Absolutely! And I certainly never meant to suggest there was anything wrong with Buffy putting the mission first. She has to. The show emphasizes that over and over.
Again, I think Riley wouldn't consciously object to her putting the mission first. The mission is saving the world, after all! But -- and I think this is partly an exploration of flipped sex roles -- it still bothers him. Traditionally, men get to put the mission first, and women just have to
( ... )
Right -- Spike observes it, I just don't think he's particularly bothered by it. He seems more in awe of it. But that's part of my pro-Spike argument: for all his faults, he's able to accept Buffy on her own terms in a way Riley couldn't.
Really? That sounds like being in awe to you? Especially in the context - he's telling Robin that his mother didn't love him, because she's a Slayer and Slayers fight alone and the rest of "us" (sic) be damned. As opposed to Spike's own Victorian lady mom, who loved him. So, you think that Spike was telling Robin it's awesome that his mother didn't love him?
That's not "accepting Buffy on her own terms". Do you think Buffy would agree that she's unable to love people because she's a Slayer ("the rest of them be damned!")? And that she always has to be alone despite having all those people around her? That's exactly what her biggest fear is, and what the First told her in Chosen, trying to demoralize her.
Absolutely! And I certainly never meant to suggest there was anything wrong with Buffy
( ... )
Again, I think Riley wouldn't consciously object to her putting the mission first. The mission is saving the world, after all! But -- and I think this is partly an exploration of flipped sex roles -- it still bothers him. Traditionally, men get to put the mission first, and women just have to understand. Well, Buffy has to put the mission first, and Riley ought to understand. I think he tries to understand. He just fails. I'm not a fan of Riley and I have a lot of objections about him, but this seems like an over-simplification of his issues. He does feel useless without his former strength, and it would be convenient to translate into the "he's bothered because her job is important to her/more important than him" (there have been stories like this; I'm thinking of Prime Suspect I, in which Jane Tennyson's relationship with live-in boyfriend played by Tom Wilkinson fails because he's bothered that she's too preoccupied with her job and has no time for him, much like the stereotypical cop's wives do in every single cop show/movie, only
( ... )
So for instance, I want to check most boxes both on 8 and 10 and a bunch of other questions as well; there's nothing wrong with Xander's observations as such, it's just that the conclusions he draws arerather self-involved. And both Spike's and Riley's actions in this episode earn them some pain.
Eh. Don't like this episode much.
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That's a great way of phrasing it.
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Yeah, it is rather...ya know.
Like your thoughts.
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I'm a little inclined to see it as an indictment of males who are more stuck in traditional sex roles -- they can't handle NOT being the most important thing in Buffy's life.
But this is one of those areas where the tension between what the character wants (Buffy's romantic angst -- she suffers on account of her mission) and what the viewer wants to see (of course the mission wins! of course the hero suffers!) creates... an interpretive complexity. Is she being punished by the story for being a woman with power, or is she being hurt by sexist social structures for being a woman with power?
But this could be why Buffy keeps ending up dating vampires, because they represent being outside of society. Spike sure doesn't care that he is less important than the mission. While Riley gets his little fee-fees hurt about it.
(Okay, maybe that was excessive Riley-snark, but really!)
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Okay, I guess we had opposite interpretations of that speech. I saw it as Spike telling Robin that Robin felt that way -- that he had carried around this grudge toward the vampire who killed his mother that was at least partly a grudge toward his mother.
's certainly not true that people that Buffy loves matter to her less than the mission
Well, no, not when that person is Dawn. But she did kill Angel to save the world, in a hugely defining character moment. Then she couldn't bring herself to do the same with Dawn -- because Dawn was family? Or because Dawn was an innocent? Would she have sacrificed her mother? Or Willow or Xander? I don't think she knows. So I don't think we know. But it's an interesting question.
I don't think Riley is comparing himself to the mission
I don't think Riley consciously thinks he resents the mission. I just read things like "you're not letting me in" or "you don't want me the way I want ( ... )
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ROBIN
You took my childhood. You took her away. She was all I had. She was my world.
SPIKE
And you weren't hers. Doesn't that piss you off?
ROBIN
Shut up. You didn't know her.
SPIKE
I know Slayers. No matter how many people they've got around them, they fight alone. Life of the Chosen One. The rest of us be damned. Your mother was no different.
There's just one Slayer Spike knows. I wonder who he could be talking about here?
Well, no, not when that person is Dawn. But she did kill Angel to save the world, in a hugely defining character moment.It's not like she had a choice, is it? If she hadn't sent Angel to hell, the whole world was going to be sucked into hell, together with Angel. (Because "he's in the world", as Spike would say.) As long as there was still a choice (before ( ... )
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Right -- Spike observes it, I just don't think he's particularly bothered by it. He seems more in awe of it. But that's part of my pro-Spike argument: for all his faults, he's able to accept Buffy on her own terms in a way Riley couldn't.
With that kind of history and trauma she carries with her, the idea that there's something wrong with Buffy for supposedly putting the mission first is all the more jarring.
Absolutely! And I certainly never meant to suggest there was anything wrong with Buffy putting the mission first. She has to. The show emphasizes that over and over.
Again, I think Riley wouldn't consciously object to her putting the mission first. The mission is saving the world, after all! But -- and I think this is partly an exploration of flipped sex roles -- it still bothers him. Traditionally, men get to put the mission first, and women just have to ( ... )
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Really? That sounds like being in awe to you? Especially in the context - he's telling Robin that his mother didn't love him, because she's a Slayer and Slayers fight alone and the rest of "us" (sic) be damned. As opposed to Spike's own Victorian lady mom, who loved him. So, you think that Spike was telling Robin it's awesome that his mother didn't love him?
That's not "accepting Buffy on her own terms". Do you think Buffy would agree that she's unable to love people because she's a Slayer ("the rest of them be damned!")? And that she always has to be alone despite having all those people around her? That's exactly what her biggest fear is, and what the First told her in Chosen, trying to demoralize her.
Absolutely! And I certainly never meant to suggest there was anything wrong with Buffy ( ... )
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