I know Slayers. No matter how many people they've got around them, they fight alone. Life of the Chosen One. The rest of us be damned. Your mother was no different.
Right -- Spike observes it, I just don't think he's particularly bothered by it. He seems more in awe of it. But that's part of my pro-Spike argument: for all his faults, he's able to accept Buffy on her own terms in a way Riley couldn't.
With that kind of history and trauma she carries with her, the idea that there's something wrong with Buffy for supposedly putting the mission first is all the more jarring.
Absolutely! And I certainly never meant to suggest there was anything wrong with Buffy putting the mission first. She has to. The show emphasizes that over and over.
Again, I think Riley wouldn't consciously object to her putting the mission first. The mission is saving the world, after all! But -- and I think this is partly an exploration of flipped sex roles -- it still bothers him. Traditionally, men get to put the mission first, and women just have to understand. Well, Buffy has to put the mission first, and Riley ought to understand. I think he tries to understand. He just fails.
Which makes this episode, among other things, a huge missed opportunity to explore that a little better.
Right -- Spike observes it, I just don't think he's particularly bothered by it. He seems more in awe of it. But that's part of my pro-Spike argument: for all his faults, he's able to accept Buffy on her own terms in a way Riley couldn't.
Really? That sounds like being in awe to you? Especially in the context - he's telling Robin that his mother didn't love him, because she's a Slayer and Slayers fight alone and the rest of "us" (sic) be damned. As opposed to Spike's own Victorian lady mom, who loved him. So, you think that Spike was telling Robin it's awesome that his mother didn't love him?
That's not "accepting Buffy on her own terms". Do you think Buffy would agree that she's unable to love people because she's a Slayer ("the rest of them be damned!")? And that she always has to be alone despite having all those people around her? That's exactly what her biggest fear is, and what the First told her in Chosen, trying to demoralize her.
Absolutely! And I certainly never meant to suggest there was anything wrong with Buffy putting the mission first. She has to. The show emphasizes that over and over.
She struggles with it over and over. She doesn't put her loved ones above the mission to save the world, but when did she really put the mission ABOVE her loved ones? She only killed Angel when it was absolutely necessary or the world would've gone to hell (together with Angel). She let Angel drink from her, endangering her life just before the Ascension. She was disgusted with the idea of turning Willow over to the Mayor in Choices. And she tried to find an alternative to sacrificing Dawn right until the end, until she found a way - by sacrificing herself. She may have talked about being able to sacrifice Dawn in season 7, but talking the talk is one thing and walking the walk is another, which makes me doubtful about this statement of hers - especially when you look at her behavior re: Spike and the trigger, in the very same episode (LMPTM).
Buffy has a strong sense of duty and wouldn't betray it for personal feelings, but she's never been the hard, pragmatic, all about the mission person she believed she had to be in season 7. She's never stopped wanting to have a life outside of Slaying, of having friends and family and relationships. They are what inspires her to fight.
Again, I think Riley wouldn't consciously object to her putting the mission first. The mission is saving the world, after all! But -- and I think this is partly an exploration of flipped sex roles -- it still bothers him. Traditionally, men get to put the mission first, and women just have to understand. Well, Buffy has to put the mission first, and Riley ought to understand. I think he tries to understand. He just fails.
I'm not a fan of Riley and I have a lot of objections about him, but this seems like an over-simplification of his issues. He does feel useless without his former strength, and it would be convenient to translate into the "he's bothered because her job is important to her/more important than him" (there have been stories like this; I'm thinking of Prime Suspect I, in which Jane Tennyson's relationship with live-in boyfriend played by Tom Wilkinson fails because he's bothered that she's too preoccupied with her job and has no time for him, much like the stereotypical cop's wives do in every single cop show/movie, only with genders reversed). But it's not her mission he's bothered here - she's mostly preoccupied with her family; and his problem isn't that she's thinking too much about her mother's illness or what is happening to Dawn to care about his problems; he's bothered because she isn't crying on his shoulder about her problems, and that makes him feel like he's not needed.
I don't know if that makes him less or more of a jerk. But it's what seems to bother him the most in that particular situation: that Buffy doesn't need him as much as he'd like to. Add to this his identity crisis and his jealousy that came from the idea that Buffy isn't as passionate about him as she was with someone else in the past, insecurities that got fueled by the Dracula incident and by Spike's taunting - and he started feeling he didn't mean that much to her.
I was actually sympathetic to him for feeling that way; but he was a real douche for the way he went about it. What's ironic in that situation is that he (and Xander, even more so) blamed Buffy for being "emotionally shut down", when Riley was even more so. If he had told Buffy about his problems, she would've been there for him. She was there for him in Out of My Mind. She just didn't know that he was having any problems - she couldn't read his mind, especially with having so much to deal with with her family.
Right -- Spike observes it, I just don't think he's particularly bothered by it. He seems more in awe of it. But that's part of my pro-Spike argument: for all his faults, he's able to accept Buffy on her own terms in a way Riley couldn't.
With that kind of history and trauma she carries with her, the idea that there's something wrong with Buffy for supposedly putting the mission first is all the more jarring.
Absolutely! And I certainly never meant to suggest there was anything wrong with Buffy putting the mission first. She has to. The show emphasizes that over and over.
Again, I think Riley wouldn't consciously object to her putting the mission first. The mission is saving the world, after all! But -- and I think this is partly an exploration of flipped sex roles -- it still bothers him. Traditionally, men get to put the mission first, and women just have to understand. Well, Buffy has to put the mission first, and Riley ought to understand. I think he tries to understand. He just fails.
Which makes this episode, among other things, a huge missed opportunity to explore that a little better.
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Really? That sounds like being in awe to you? Especially in the context - he's telling Robin that his mother didn't love him, because she's a Slayer and Slayers fight alone and the rest of "us" (sic) be damned. As opposed to Spike's own Victorian lady mom, who loved him. So, you think that Spike was telling Robin it's awesome that his mother didn't love him?
That's not "accepting Buffy on her own terms". Do you think Buffy would agree that she's unable to love people because she's a Slayer ("the rest of them be damned!")? And that she always has to be alone despite having all those people around her? That's exactly what her biggest fear is, and what the First told her in Chosen, trying to demoralize her.
Absolutely! And I certainly never meant to suggest there was anything wrong with Buffy putting the mission first. She has to. The show emphasizes that over and over.
She struggles with it over and over. She doesn't put her loved ones above the mission to save the world, but when did she really put the mission ABOVE her loved ones? She only killed Angel when it was absolutely necessary or the world would've gone to hell (together with Angel). She let Angel drink from her, endangering her life just before the Ascension. She was disgusted with the idea of turning Willow over to the Mayor in Choices. And she tried to find an alternative to sacrificing Dawn right until the end, until she found a way - by sacrificing herself. She may have talked about being able to sacrifice Dawn in season 7, but talking the talk is one thing and walking the walk is another, which makes me doubtful about this statement of hers - especially when you look at her behavior re: Spike and the trigger, in the very same episode (LMPTM).
Buffy has a strong sense of duty and wouldn't betray it for personal feelings, but she's never been the hard, pragmatic, all about the mission person she believed she had to be in season 7. She's never stopped wanting to have a life outside of Slaying, of having friends and family and relationships. They are what inspires her to fight.
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I'm not a fan of Riley and I have a lot of objections about him, but this seems like an over-simplification of his issues. He does feel useless without his former strength, and it would be convenient to translate into the "he's bothered because her job is important to her/more important than him" (there have been stories like this; I'm thinking of Prime Suspect I, in which Jane Tennyson's relationship with live-in boyfriend played by Tom Wilkinson fails because he's bothered that she's too preoccupied with her job and has no time for him, much like the stereotypical cop's wives do in every single cop show/movie, only with genders reversed). But it's not her mission he's bothered here - she's mostly preoccupied with her family; and his problem isn't that she's thinking too much about her mother's illness or what is happening to Dawn to care about his problems; he's bothered because she isn't crying on his shoulder about her problems, and that makes him feel like he's not needed.
I don't know if that makes him less or more of a jerk. But it's what seems to bother him the most in that particular situation: that Buffy doesn't need him as much as he'd like to. Add to this his identity crisis and his jealousy that came from the idea that Buffy isn't as passionate about him as she was with someone else in the past, insecurities that got fueled by the Dracula incident and by Spike's taunting - and he started feeling he didn't mean that much to her.
I was actually sympathetic to him for feeling that way; but he was a real douche for the way he went about it. What's ironic in that situation is that he (and Xander, even more so) blamed Buffy for being "emotionally shut down", when Riley was even more so. If he had told Buffy about his problems, she would've been there for him. She was there for him in Out of My Mind. She just didn't know that he was having any problems - she couldn't read his mind, especially with having so much to deal with with her family.
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