Men in Westeros

[redcandle17]

We've had a few posts on the women of ASoIaF, but we haven't discussed the men as a whole, which is of itself telling. So, let's talk about masculinity and Westeros

Comments

[matitablu]

I agree - there have certainly been great improvements in the last century concerning men/women equality, but it's not like there aren't issues anymore. There still are double standards to a certain degree.

[savepureness]

It's interesting how my friend and I were discussing this topic (well, at least revolving pretty much around it, since we have started with how women were regarded in Westeros, and ended by doing an unlikely comparison between Cersei and Brienne); there's a lot to be said on this account, so I'd rather keep it short and to the point

[bananorama]

Hrmm, just thinking out loud, we get the impression that being a gay male is a point of gossip, but do we hear much about a stigma against lesbianism?

[savepureness]

Well, consider our modern society; at least in my environment, being gay is something to be mocked for, and even avoided, while being lesbian - even as much as rumoured - does nothing else than to "advertise" you in a positive way. It's again the whole macho-oriented thinking: gay men are not manly, while gay women do not lose their feminine charms, while becoming even more exciting if they show such "inclination". /end of social quote.

I guess the opinion in Westeros is pretty much similar; this, if being a woman and being lesbian matters at all. I'm not sure that 90% of the highborn women were cared for other things than their endowement and their maidenhood.

[redcandle17]

while being lesbian - even as much as rumoured - does nothing else than to "advertise" you in a positive way.

This is also problematic, IMO. Lipstick lesbians and straight/bisexual girls kising or having sex is considered sexy and cool. However more "butch" lesbians are still regard with derision.

The depiction of lesbians is non-existent in ASoIaF. We get one woman having sex with her maid while fantasizing about men, and another woman having sex with a friend to see what it feels like to be a man. IRRC, there's also mention of a mural at Chataya's brothel depicting "women entwined in the act of love" but it's a brothel so it can hardly be considered a measure of normal Westerosi attitude to women having sex with women. Sex between women in ASoIaF is still very much about men.

[jesatria]

I think the men of most of Westeros are nearly as confined by gender roles as the women are. Men are supposed to fuck and kill, end of story. If you don't fit into that masculine ideal, too bad. We'll make you fit.

[pragmatic_chimp]

I agree.

[bananorama]

A few other details off the top of my head:

-- "Ser Rodrik groused. His opinion of singers was well known; music was a lovely thing for girls, but he could not comprehend why any healthy boy would fill his hand with a harp when he might have had a sword."

-- "But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his armsAbout fandom, or lets say modern opinion in general, it's much more okay for a girl to be a tomboy than a guy to be a, what would you say, tomgirl. A perhaps unforeseen side effect of this is to imply that being more like the traditional concept of male is more human/standard. Nobody wants to be like the traditional female because it's inherently lesser. There are some times when the traditional female elements come off in the story as more practical, more ethical, more understanding, etc, and yet people are less apt to embrace those values because they are "female". In Westeros society, less feminine females have it harder but for

[bananorama]

Sorry for replying to my own post, I don't have an edit option with a plus account.

Also, speaking of singing -- Rhaegar sang, and is pretty universally worshiped as far as we know. His virility and masculinity is never questioned. I'd like to put forth the idea that the mix of male and female in one person is attractive in theory. Lyanna is a very attractive figure to readers because she's a beautiful girlish tomboy who could kick your ass. Rhaegar is a powerful dragonlike sensitive poet to the point of emo comparisons by the tongue-in-cheek modern audience. Dacey also is attractive, a warrior woman who looks just as becoming dancing in a gown. Ned Stark comes off as likeable because the big ice man with the huge-ass sword knows "softer" traits like mercy and compassion. The author kind of plays with these traits to make you question what is really "male" and "female", what is grounded in natural differences and what is unfair social constructs, whether understanding the way gender roles are only serves to propagate them

[redcandle17]

That's an interesting point.

One of Renly's Rainbow Guard, Guyard the Green, who led Stannis' vanguard at the Blackwater, also seems to have considered himself a singer. And there's Mance Rayder. Being into "soft" stuff seems to be okay if you're also good at the manly art of killing.

I'm not so sure about the women. Lyanna was a beautiful girl and Dacey is perceived as attractive so anything they do is cool. Ugly women like Brienne are another matter; those are "freaks."

Huh. As I'm typing this, I realized that beauty for women and skill at violence for men seems to be the biggest requirement in Westeros.

[bananorama]

Sansa is also a beautiful girl, and certainly not everything she does is perceived as cool. The difference is Lyanna and Dacey have enough tomboyish allure to complement their femininity. Sansa is a feminine girl, Brienne is a masculine girl, but Lyanna is perceived as being able to compete in both arenas.

Of course someone like Sam has it even harder than Brienne as far as being allowed to have insecurities goes.

And yes, beauty is at a premium for women. Catelyn says that Brienne is unfortunate for not having good looks, because good looks are useful for women, not because she believes it makes Brienne inherently unlikeable (as Brienne becomes practically her only friend in the book and vice versa). It's kind of a paler echo of Cersei, who blatantly uses her looks for power. Women are aggressive just as men are, but men have literal weapons and women don't

[skull_bearer]

I've always felt very sorry for Sam for that very reason, and hated Randyll Tarley with a passion even before we met him (now I think he's probably the character I hate the most in the series. Dragonfodder, please!)

[cloud_wolf]

ITA. I really really don't like Randyll Tarly and never got why people seem to dislike/make stupid jokes about/ignore Sam. He's sweet and is one of the few people in Asoiaf who I think really deserves a happy ending.

[anaid_rabbit]

Truly. He`s a scholar, he loves to read, he`s a non stereotypical male in a society where masculinity seems to be defined by one`s capacity for violence (even sexual violence). What`s not to love?

I am seriously puzzled at people who dislike Sam because of his physical appearance and because he doesn`t fit the his society`s (and ours maybe?) definition of a "worthy" male. And yet they are quick to praise those female characters who do not behave the way their culture expects them to.

Double standards much?