We've had a few posts on the women of ASoIaF, but we haven't discussed the men as a whole, which is of itself telling. So, let's talk about masculinity and Westeros
( Read more... )
Sansa is also a beautiful girl, and certainly not everything she does is perceived as cool. The difference is Lyanna and Dacey have enough tomboyish allure to complement their femininity. Sansa is a feminine girl, Brienne is a masculine girl, but Lyanna is perceived as being able to compete in both arenas.
Of course someone like Sam has it even harder than Brienne as far as being allowed to have insecurities goes.
And yes, beauty is at a premium for women. Catelyn says that Brienne is unfortunate for not having good looks, because good looks are useful for women, not because she believes it makes Brienne inherently unlikeable (as Brienne becomes practically her only friend in the book and vice versa). It's kind of a paler echo of Cersei, who blatantly uses her looks for power. Women are aggressive just as men are, but men have literal weapons and women don't.
It makes all sorts of sense really, Martin chose a chivalric setting and is showing us all the ins and outs of it. In chivalry you have the skilled warrior knight and the inspirationally beautiful lady.
Sansa is also a beautiful girl, and certainly not everything she does is perceived as cool. The difference is Lyanna and Dacey have enough tomboyish allure to complement their femininity.
True. I definitely agree that we tend to find a mix of "feminine" and "masculine" traits appealing, in both male and female characters.
A couple of other things...violaswampFebruary 11 2008, 18:24:10 UTC
Of course our liking for an androgynous mixture of traits is because on some level we know that a lot of "feminine" and "masculine" traits are really necessary human traits. That's why so many of us find Sansa unappealing, because she doesn't have any of the masculine virtues that actually are virtues.
OTOH, it's worth noting that Dacey is a minor character and Lyanna dies before the story ever takes place. We never see either Dacey or Lyanna contending with male interests, fighting them and negotiating with them. If we did, I suspect fewer people would like them in fandom. Catelyn is a mixture of masculine and feminine traits--and that's PRECISELY what a lot of the fanboiz hate about her, because she refuses to slink back into a docile mommy-role and reaches for influence and insists on having her voice heard on "masculine" matters despite being unabashedly a woman and a mother and pisses off Robb. Arianne also gets her share of hate for being a sexual, feminine woman who wants power in a masculine domain. Arya and Asha are popular, but they do not conflict with any sympathetic male characters the way Catelyn (for instance) does. Plus Asha's described as extremely sexually appealing (while NOT denying any well-liked males her sexual favors) and Arya is still physically a child. These combined factors IMO account for why they don't set off people's sexist reactions--and yet we STILL get Arya described as a sociopath by fans for having violent urges, even though almost every single male character is at least as violent in thought and action as she is.
So yes, we do like androgynous traits in our characters--but ONLY in very restricted ways if those characters are female.
As for the men, I think anything goes for them so long as they are capable of being violent and macho, as I said in my comment below. It's okay if they sing so long as they can also fight. Sam gets contempt because he rejects the idea of macho violence wholesale, not because he likes reading or anything. If he were a bookworm and a master swordsman, everyone would love him.
Of course someone like Sam has it even harder than Brienne as far as being allowed to have insecurities goes.
And yes, beauty is at a premium for women. Catelyn says that Brienne is unfortunate for not having good looks, because good looks are useful for women, not because she believes it makes Brienne inherently unlikeable (as Brienne becomes practically her only friend in the book and vice versa). It's kind of a paler echo of Cersei, who blatantly uses her looks for power. Women are aggressive just as men are, but men have literal weapons and women don't.
It makes all sorts of sense really, Martin chose a chivalric setting and is showing us all the ins and outs of it. In chivalry you have the skilled warrior knight and the inspirationally beautiful lady.
Reply
Sansa is also a beautiful girl, and certainly not everything she does is perceived as cool. The difference is Lyanna and Dacey have enough tomboyish allure to complement their femininity.
True. I definitely agree that we tend to find a mix of "feminine" and "masculine" traits appealing, in both male and female characters.
Reply
OTOH, it's worth noting that Dacey is a minor character and Lyanna dies before the story ever takes place. We never see either Dacey or Lyanna contending with male interests, fighting them and negotiating with them. If we did, I suspect fewer people would like them in fandom. Catelyn is a mixture of masculine and feminine traits--and that's PRECISELY what a lot of the fanboiz hate about her, because she refuses to slink back into a docile mommy-role and reaches for influence and insists on having her voice heard on "masculine" matters despite being unabashedly a woman and a mother and pisses off Robb. Arianne also gets her share of hate for being a sexual, feminine woman who wants power in a masculine domain. Arya and Asha are popular, but they do not conflict with any sympathetic male characters the way Catelyn (for instance) does. Plus Asha's described as extremely sexually appealing (while NOT denying any well-liked males her sexual favors) and Arya is still physically a child. These combined factors IMO account for why they don't set off people's sexist reactions--and yet we STILL get Arya described as a sociopath by fans for having violent urges, even though almost every single male character is at least as violent in thought and action as she is.
So yes, we do like androgynous traits in our characters--but ONLY in very restricted ways if those characters are female.
As for the men, I think anything goes for them so long as they are capable of being violent and macho, as I said in my comment below. It's okay if they sing so long as they can also fight. Sam gets contempt because he rejects the idea of macho violence wholesale, not because he likes reading or anything. If he were a bookworm and a master swordsman, everyone would love him.
Reply
Leave a comment