We've had a few posts on the women of ASoIaF, but we haven't discussed the men as a whole, which is of itself telling. So, let's talk about masculinity and Westeros
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-- "Ser Rodrik groused. His opinion of singers was well known; music was a lovely thing for girls, but he could not comprehend why any healthy boy would fill his hand with a harp when he might have had a sword."
-- "But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms."
About fandom, or lets say modern opinion in general, it's much more okay for a girl to be a tomboy than a guy to be a, what would you say, tomgirl. A perhaps unforeseen side effect of this is to imply that being more like the traditional concept of male is more human/standard. Nobody wants to be like the traditional female because it's inherently lesser. There are some times when the traditional female elements come off in the story as more practical, more ethical, more understanding, etc, and yet people are less apt to embrace those values because they are "female". In Westeros society, less feminine females have it harder but for readers it's the opposite because the conventionally male traits are superior.
A guy like Sam is probably the greatest example in the reverse. He's afraid, yes, but it was none other than our beloved stoic heroic Ned Stark who said that a man can only be brave when he is afraid. Sam is also compassionate and humble and loves to learn. Instead of pursuing more interesting lines of thought like, Perhaps there is a disturbing conflict between society's values and humanity's desires (humility vs leadership, cowardice vs arrogance, the cross-distinction between the two, etc), people more readily just write Sam off.
Westeros is definitely a macho society. Readers tend to be more okay with macho than girly, though the author doesn't present either as the ideal (it's arguable if he presents an ideal at all).
Sorry for replying to my own post, I don't have an edit option with a plus account.
Also, speaking of singing -- Rhaegar sang, and is pretty universally worshiped as far as we know. His virility and masculinity is never questioned. I'd like to put forth the idea that the mix of male and female in one person is attractive in theory. Lyanna is a very attractive figure to readers because she's a beautiful girlish tomboy who could kick your ass. Rhaegar is a powerful dragonlike sensitive poet to the point of emo comparisons by the tongue-in-cheek modern audience. Dacey also is attractive, a warrior woman who looks just as becoming dancing in a gown. Ned Stark comes off as likeable because the big ice man with the huge-ass sword knows "softer" traits like mercy and compassion. The author kind of plays with these traits to make you question what is really "male" and "female", what is grounded in natural differences and what is unfair social constructs, whether understanding the way gender roles are only serves to propagate them longer into times when they maybe are no longer necessary.
One of Renly's Rainbow Guard, Guyard the Green, who led Stannis' vanguard at the Blackwater, also seems to have considered himself a singer. And there's Mance Rayder. Being into "soft" stuff seems to be okay if you're also good at the manly art of killing.
I'm not so sure about the women. Lyanna was a beautiful girl and Dacey is perceived as attractive so anything they do is cool. Ugly women like Brienne are another matter; those are "freaks."
Huh. As I'm typing this, I realized that beauty for women and skill at violence for men seems to be the biggest requirement in Westeros.
Sansa is also a beautiful girl, and certainly not everything she does is perceived as cool. The difference is Lyanna and Dacey have enough tomboyish allure to complement their femininity. Sansa is a feminine girl, Brienne is a masculine girl, but Lyanna is perceived as being able to compete in both arenas.
Of course someone like Sam has it even harder than Brienne as far as being allowed to have insecurities goes.
And yes, beauty is at a premium for women. Catelyn says that Brienne is unfortunate for not having good looks, because good looks are useful for women, not because she believes it makes Brienne inherently unlikeable (as Brienne becomes practically her only friend in the book and vice versa). It's kind of a paler echo of Cersei, who blatantly uses her looks for power. Women are aggressive just as men are, but men have literal weapons and women don't.
It makes all sorts of sense really, Martin chose a chivalric setting and is showing us all the ins and outs of it. In chivalry you have the skilled warrior knight and the inspirationally beautiful lady.
Sansa is also a beautiful girl, and certainly not everything she does is perceived as cool. The difference is Lyanna and Dacey have enough tomboyish allure to complement their femininity.
True. I definitely agree that we tend to find a mix of "feminine" and "masculine" traits appealing, in both male and female characters.
A couple of other things...violaswampFebruary 11 2008, 18:24:10 UTC
Of course our liking for an androgynous mixture of traits is because on some level we know that a lot of "feminine" and "masculine" traits are really necessary human traits. That's why so many of us find Sansa unappealing, because she doesn't have any of the masculine virtues that actually are virtues.
OTOH, it's worth noting that Dacey is a minor character and Lyanna dies before the story ever takes place. We never see either Dacey or Lyanna contending with male interests, fighting them and negotiating with them. If we did, I suspect fewer people would like them in fandom. Catelyn is a mixture of masculine and feminine traits--and that's PRECISELY what a lot of the fanboiz hate about her, because she refuses to slink back into a docile mommy-role and reaches for influence and insists on having her voice heard on "masculine" matters despite being unabashedly a woman and a mother and pisses off Robb. Arianne also gets her share of hate for being a sexual, feminine woman who wants power in a masculine domain. Arya and Asha are popular, but they do not conflict with any sympathetic male characters the way Catelyn (for instance) does. Plus Asha's described as extremely sexually appealing (while NOT denying any well-liked males her sexual favors) and Arya is still physically a child. These combined factors IMO account for why they don't set off people's sexist reactions--and yet we STILL get Arya described as a sociopath by fans for having violent urges, even though almost every single male character is at least as violent in thought and action as she is.
So yes, we do like androgynous traits in our characters--but ONLY in very restricted ways if those characters are female.
As for the men, I think anything goes for them so long as they are capable of being violent and macho, as I said in my comment below. It's okay if they sing so long as they can also fight. Sam gets contempt because he rejects the idea of macho violence wholesale, not because he likes reading or anything. If he were a bookworm and a master swordsman, everyone would love him.
That's exactly what my friend and I were debating, a few hours ago; any skillful warrior with a song on his lips and an instrument in his hands is appreciated, as long as, for a secondary activity, he spends his time fathering bastards and/or killing scores of people a year. On the other hand, there are the singers, and the mummers, and the pyromancers, and probably many other men whose activities are not taken into derision, even if they don't (usually) involve a killing spree.
As for women, Asha is attractive too, and yet she's being scorned and not granted the right to the throne or the lead because she's a woman. The North seems to perceive women's valiance differently, perhaps a reminiscence from their ancestors. The wildling women fight shoulder by shoulder with their men, be they ugly or beautiful; Lyanna, as well as the Mormont ladies, was a Northerner - so this might apply very well to the region where being brave and hard should apply to everyone, because of the many threats and the difficulty of life.
-- "Ser Rodrik groused. His opinion of singers was well known; music was a lovely thing for girls, but he could not comprehend why any healthy boy would fill his hand with a harp when he might have had a sword."
-- "But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms."
About fandom, or lets say modern opinion in general, it's much more okay for a girl to be a tomboy than a guy to be a, what would you say, tomgirl. A perhaps unforeseen side effect of this is to imply that being more like the traditional concept of male is more human/standard. Nobody wants to be like the traditional female because it's inherently lesser. There are some times when the traditional female elements come off in the story as more practical, more ethical, more understanding, etc, and yet people are less apt to embrace those values because they are "female". In Westeros society, less feminine females have it harder but for readers it's the opposite because the conventionally male traits are superior.
A guy like Sam is probably the greatest example in the reverse. He's afraid, yes, but it was none other than our beloved stoic heroic Ned Stark who said that a man can only be brave when he is afraid. Sam is also compassionate and humble and loves to learn. Instead of pursuing more interesting lines of thought like, Perhaps there is a disturbing conflict between society's values and humanity's desires (humility vs leadership, cowardice vs arrogance, the cross-distinction between the two, etc), people more readily just write Sam off.
Westeros is definitely a macho society. Readers tend to be more okay with macho than girly, though the author doesn't present either as the ideal (it's arguable if he presents an ideal at all).
Reply
Also, speaking of singing -- Rhaegar sang, and is pretty universally worshiped as far as we know. His virility and masculinity is never questioned. I'd like to put forth the idea that the mix of male and female in one person is attractive in theory. Lyanna is a very attractive figure to readers because she's a beautiful girlish tomboy who could kick your ass. Rhaegar is a powerful dragonlike sensitive poet to the point of emo comparisons by the tongue-in-cheek modern audience. Dacey also is attractive, a warrior woman who looks just as becoming dancing in a gown. Ned Stark comes off as likeable because the big ice man with the huge-ass sword knows "softer" traits like mercy and compassion. The author kind of plays with these traits to make you question what is really "male" and "female", what is grounded in natural differences and what is unfair social constructs, whether understanding the way gender roles are only serves to propagate them longer into times when they maybe are no longer necessary.
Reply
One of Renly's Rainbow Guard, Guyard the Green, who led Stannis' vanguard at the Blackwater, also seems to have considered himself a singer. And there's Mance Rayder. Being into "soft" stuff seems to be okay if you're also good at the manly art of killing.
I'm not so sure about the women. Lyanna was a beautiful girl and Dacey is perceived as attractive so anything they do is cool. Ugly women like Brienne are another matter; those are "freaks."
Huh. As I'm typing this, I realized that beauty for women and skill at violence for men seems to be the biggest requirement in Westeros.
Reply
Of course someone like Sam has it even harder than Brienne as far as being allowed to have insecurities goes.
And yes, beauty is at a premium for women. Catelyn says that Brienne is unfortunate for not having good looks, because good looks are useful for women, not because she believes it makes Brienne inherently unlikeable (as Brienne becomes practically her only friend in the book and vice versa). It's kind of a paler echo of Cersei, who blatantly uses her looks for power. Women are aggressive just as men are, but men have literal weapons and women don't.
It makes all sorts of sense really, Martin chose a chivalric setting and is showing us all the ins and outs of it. In chivalry you have the skilled warrior knight and the inspirationally beautiful lady.
Reply
Sansa is also a beautiful girl, and certainly not everything she does is perceived as cool. The difference is Lyanna and Dacey have enough tomboyish allure to complement their femininity.
True. I definitely agree that we tend to find a mix of "feminine" and "masculine" traits appealing, in both male and female characters.
Reply
OTOH, it's worth noting that Dacey is a minor character and Lyanna dies before the story ever takes place. We never see either Dacey or Lyanna contending with male interests, fighting them and negotiating with them. If we did, I suspect fewer people would like them in fandom. Catelyn is a mixture of masculine and feminine traits--and that's PRECISELY what a lot of the fanboiz hate about her, because she refuses to slink back into a docile mommy-role and reaches for influence and insists on having her voice heard on "masculine" matters despite being unabashedly a woman and a mother and pisses off Robb. Arianne also gets her share of hate for being a sexual, feminine woman who wants power in a masculine domain. Arya and Asha are popular, but they do not conflict with any sympathetic male characters the way Catelyn (for instance) does. Plus Asha's described as extremely sexually appealing (while NOT denying any well-liked males her sexual favors) and Arya is still physically a child. These combined factors IMO account for why they don't set off people's sexist reactions--and yet we STILL get Arya described as a sociopath by fans for having violent urges, even though almost every single male character is at least as violent in thought and action as she is.
So yes, we do like androgynous traits in our characters--but ONLY in very restricted ways if those characters are female.
As for the men, I think anything goes for them so long as they are capable of being violent and macho, as I said in my comment below. It's okay if they sing so long as they can also fight. Sam gets contempt because he rejects the idea of macho violence wholesale, not because he likes reading or anything. If he were a bookworm and a master swordsman, everyone would love him.
Reply
As for women, Asha is attractive too, and yet she's being scorned and not granted the right to the throne or the lead because she's a woman. The North seems to perceive women's valiance differently, perhaps a reminiscence from their ancestors. The wildling women fight shoulder by shoulder with their men, be they ugly or beautiful; Lyanna, as well as the Mormont ladies, was a Northerner - so this might apply very well to the region where being brave and hard should apply to everyone, because of the many threats and the difficulty of life.
Reply
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