It always stuns me when this comes up, because it really is a no-brainer. It's wrong, people. It's wrong when it happens for real, so surely, it follows that writing it in fics with whatever so-called 'justification' is also wrong. All I know is if you want to write that sort of stuff, just let me know where you hang on out so I stay the hell away.
People write about many wrong things, but there are some subject that, as you say are no-brainers - if you'd print out such a story and give it to our social services, they'd stand outside the author's door within days. I doubt "but it's only fiction!" would convince them. To some this might be censorship and OMG opreshun, but to me it shows we have a working safety net in our society, even if there are some holes.
You know, I try to stay away from expressing opinions on fandom matters in general, but in this case I was really, really tempted.
I agree with you, of course, and I think you expressed -- and supported -- your opinion really well in thid post.
However, I hope it's okay if I tack on my own personal rant here in your comments...
This time around, I am particularly annoyed by the accusation that we anti-chan-rape members of fandom are picking on this particularly unpopular and freaky subset of our (apparently already unpopular and freaky) group to make ourselves feel better about our own marginal status. This is such crap. When I come across such fics, I don't even see them as part of fandom as I know it: I see them as child porn, plain and simple. My strong and uncontrollable negative reaction to child porn trumps my interest in fannish matters.
So, anyway, I would like to join you in the tight-arsed corner, and be counted among the horrible suppressors of others' sexuality.
Good points! And by the laws of my country, they are kiddie porn, no discussions. If that's different in the USA, then it's their business. Doesn't mean I have to adapt to their standards, though. I do see those stories as part of fandom, though, and the strong support they get makes me doubt fandom as a whole.
We've recently had a case like that in some POTC communities (though that was clearly a "bait" post), and it made me happy to see the story being deleted and the author banned in under half a day. There was only one mod whose sole problem was that the story in question hadn't been put behind a cut, and one individual who whined about "censorship" and "fandom nazis".
I do know people who read about child abuse because they went through this ordeal themselves and for them, it's a carthasis. We're not talking about fanfic where child abuse is a lame plot vehicle to get two guys between the sheets, though. And for those who really find child abuse sexually arousing - I wouldn't want them as my neighbours.
Agreed! Of course fiction isn't reality. But it's not written or read in a vacuum, either. So while I probably won't issue any "calls to arms" over a fanfic I see, I don't feel guilty for wondering about people who write about certain things.
That's an often ignored aspect - ignored in favour of "but I like it, and so it really doesn't matter, because it's all about me, me, me!"
I wouldn't "call to arms" either; during LJ's strikethrough fiasco, I sided with fandom, but just like you I feel I have the right to make a judgement, just like people have the right to decided that I'm a right tosser or writing what I write. Fair enough - if it goes both ways.
I wouldn't like to offend you or anything, but this question has been nagging me since the first time this theme came up in the net.
I'm all for happiness in fiction because I think that life is bad enough as it is, and although I like kinky fics (I'm a really dirty, rotten bastard), I dislike characters really suffering, as in really raped with deep insightful reflections on their feelings in the matter. I don't have the stomach it requires.
That as introduction.
But when talking about what is not totally right to write and what is, how is it depicting sexual situations with minors worse than depicting murder with minors? I would say they're both horrible crimes and I can't understand why everybody raise their voices against the first but no one says a word about the latter.
I'm not trying to make a point or defend a position I've not really taken yet, but, as I said, this is a question that I always pose myself and I would like the opinion of someone who has very clear ideas about it.
I would say they're both horrible crimes and I can't understand why everybody raise their voices against the first but no one says a word about the latter.
I can only talk for myself here, but I feel the same way about stories gleefully describing murder/strong violence involving minors. Sexual abuse of children is a "hot topic", more so than murder of children, maybe that's why it's discussed more often? From what I see, the discussed stories are usually "kinky", sexual.
And I guess that's where it doesn't work for me: I do not consider getting off on reading about sex with kids or violence against kids a "kink" (therefore the " " in the title).
Of course there are authors who can handle such a subject, make sense of it and I'm not saying nobody should ever be allowed to deal with these themes again. But if we're honest: most fanfics are there for quick gratification.
About the "kink" factor in this and why it's the heart of the problem, I must confess that one of my favourite fantasies involves non-con. Being forced to have sex with a stranger is a very common fantasy of mine and, well, it's really great as a kink. And I can't express how scared, terrified and disgusted I am at the thought of that possibly ever happening to me. But as a fantasy, I really enjoy it, the "no, I don't want to (more, please)" kind of kink. Even when thinking about it really happening makes me sick and horrified.
Children are innocent and important, but I am, too (at least to myself), so, if I can separate perfectly reality and fiction in this case, I think it would be unfair of me to think that others can't, and for that reason, I can't condemn them.
That doesn't mean I don't understand you, I really do. It's just that I think I don't totally share your point of view.
Being forced to have sex with a stranger is a very common fantasy of mine and, well, it's really great as a kink.
Thank you for sharing your experiences, I appreciate your openess and hearing your point of view. For me, what you describe *is* a kink. You're in charge, you're the director of the movie. It's about *you*. To me, that has nothing to do with writing or reading child rape.
It's just that I think I don't totally share your point of view.
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I agree with you, of course, and I think you expressed -- and supported -- your opinion really well in thid post.
However, I hope it's okay if I tack on my own personal rant here in your comments...
This time around, I am particularly annoyed by the accusation that we anti-chan-rape members of fandom are picking on this particularly unpopular and freaky subset of our (apparently already unpopular and freaky) group to make ourselves feel better about our own marginal status. This is such crap. When I come across such fics, I don't even see them as part of fandom as I know it: I see them as child porn, plain and simple. My strong and uncontrollable negative reaction to child porn trumps my interest in fannish matters.
So, anyway, I would like to join you in the tight-arsed corner, and be counted among the horrible suppressors of others' sexuality.
Reply
We've recently had a case like that in some POTC communities (though that was clearly a "bait" post), and it made me happy to see the story being deleted and the author banned in under half a day. There was only one mod whose sole problem was that the story in question hadn't been put behind a cut, and one individual who whined about "censorship" and "fandom nazis".
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(The comment has been removed)
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That's an often ignored aspect - ignored in favour of "but I like it, and so it really doesn't matter, because it's all about me, me, me!"
I wouldn't "call to arms" either; during LJ's strikethrough fiasco, I sided with fandom, but just like you I feel I have the right to make a judgement, just like people have the right to decided that I'm a right tosser or writing what I write. Fair enough - if it goes both ways.
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I'm all for happiness in fiction because I think that life is bad enough as it is, and although I like kinky fics (I'm a really dirty, rotten bastard), I dislike characters really suffering, as in really raped with deep insightful reflections on their feelings in the matter. I don't have the stomach it requires.
That as introduction.
But when talking about what is not totally right to write and what is, how is it depicting sexual situations with minors worse than depicting murder with minors? I would say they're both horrible crimes and I can't understand why everybody raise their voices against the first but no one says a word about the latter.
I'm not trying to make a point or defend a position I've not really taken yet, but, as I said, this is a question that I always pose myself and I would like the opinion of someone who has very clear ideas about it.
Edited because I'm stupid.
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I can only talk for myself here, but I feel the same way about stories gleefully describing murder/strong violence involving minors. Sexual abuse of children is a "hot topic", more so than murder of children, maybe that's why it's discussed more often? From what I see, the discussed stories are usually "kinky", sexual.
And I guess that's where it doesn't work for me: I do not consider getting off on reading about sex with kids or violence against kids a "kink" (therefore the " " in the title).
Of course there are authors who can handle such a subject, make sense of it and I'm not saying nobody should ever be allowed to deal with these themes again. But if we're honest: most fanfics are there for quick gratification.
I hope this makes some sense...
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About the "kink" factor in this and why it's the heart of the problem, I must confess that one of my favourite fantasies involves non-con. Being forced to have sex with a stranger is a very common fantasy of mine and, well, it's really great as a kink. And I can't express how scared, terrified and disgusted I am at the thought of that possibly ever happening to me. But as a fantasy, I really enjoy it, the "no, I don't want to (more, please)" kind of kink. Even when thinking about it really happening makes me sick and horrified.
Children are innocent and important, but I am, too (at least to myself), so, if I can separate perfectly reality and fiction in this case, I think it would be unfair of me to think that others can't, and for that reason, I can't condemn them.
That doesn't mean I don't understand you, I really do. It's just that I think I don't totally share your point of view.
Yes, it made sense. Thank you for your patience.
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Thank you for sharing your experiences, I appreciate your openess and hearing your point of view. For me, what you describe *is* a kink. You're in charge, you're the director of the movie. It's about *you*. To me, that has nothing to do with writing or reading child rape.
It's just that I think I don't totally share your point of view.
That's fine for me. :)
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