Tolerance is a two way street.

[delta_mai]

So this is a Tumblr cross post.  The original post was in response to reactions to someone talking about how bisexuality doesn't exist.  It soon escalated into accusations (maybe unfounded, maybe not) of biphobia and hatred.  This is my reply.

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Thinking something does not exist does NOT equal hate or biphobia. I am a great advocate for people

Comments

[cantarina1]

It's absolutely okay and even important to give people space to process new ideas. A lifetime's worth of "This is how it is" doesn't disappear overnight! It's okay to be tolerant of that.

But call a spade a spade, it's still biphobia. It's still fear of something different. Someone claiming that they know the feelings and desires of a whole group of strangers better than they do (and for what? why do people feel compelled to make those statements public?) is garbage. Respect to the people who are engaging with that discomfort and trying to deal with it productively, but writing about it in such an inflamatory way on the internet doesn't sound like it to me.

[delta_mai]

Yay I'm glad you agree :D

But I'm not sure that thinking bisexuality doesn't exist is biphobia. Sure, in some people, this belief might be motivated by fear of the unknown/something they don't understand. But it won't be in everyone, and assigning them that title of biphobia is unfair. It's like saying that someone who has mood swings in biploar - you're applying psychological terms when they might not be correct.

Like, I don't think unicorns exist. That doesn't mean I'm uniphobic! (Or whatever the correct term for phobia of unicorns would be :P)

I hope my post wasn't inflammatory :( I hoped it would be the opposite. Unfortunately, when dealing with issues such as these, just about anything you write about it could be interpreted as inflammatory by at least one person out there!

[cantarina1]

No, I see your point. And it's even theoretically possible to come across someone who's never run into the concept before is just genuinely surprised. To refine what I was trying to say, I think it has a lot to do with how you deal with your reaction and how you externalize it and because of societal biases we've all inherited (in the west, anyway), it often does play out in a hurtful manner rather than "Oh! That's new. Neat, that's cool" which IS biphobic, literal meaning of the term aside.

[delta_mai]

Ah, it might be because I'm a pedant, but I don't think the "literal meaning" of biphobia should EVER be "put aside" because, well, that's what it MEANS!!!!

I think it's dangerous to confuse the concept of fear and the concept of hatred. True, in the case of bi or homophobia they are often interlinked, but not always. It is possible for someone to be homophobic but not hate gays: my father for instance. He doesn't like the idea of homo/bisexuality, and it scares him, but over the years he's been friends with many gay people, and, although he abhorres the idea that my sister and I are bisexual, he still supports us despite his biphobia. You see?

On the other hand, it can be possible for someone to truly hate gay/bi/trans/asexual people, but not to be afraid of them. Although yes, the root of this hate is normally some latent fear of the unknown, that's not always the case.

And to say that this hatred is founded in fear is potentially dangerous - it gives people who truly hate LGBTQA etc. an excuse.

[mycenaes]

idk, as someone who is bi, if someone tells me that my sexuality doesn't exist, I'd be pretty much inclined to believe that they're queerphobic. I've had people tell me that it doesn't exist, and it hurts.

Besides, we don't live in an equal society. Every day, acts of violence are perpetrated against queer folk everywhere, and it's not like straight people have to deal with that same issue at all, unless they themselves are part of another marginalized group.

Homo/biphobia is part of a system of oppression, not just random people hating for no discernible reason.

[delta_mai]

Yeah, they might be queerphobic. But remember the concept of a phobia is that of a fear. It might be they just don't think it exists. Which I think is damaging to label as a fear, because it's not a fear, it's a product of IGNORANCE! You see? If we label it as a fear there's less motivation to seek to EDUCATE those that think it doesn't exist, and more motivation to write them off as "hating on" us. You see

[cdaae]

To say that bisexuality doesn't exist has to be pretty damn wilful ignorance, though. Anyone who uses something like Tumblr is unlikely to be so sheltered that they've genuinely never heard of bisexuality before - it's far more likely that they have made a decision not to accept it as real. And maybe they've been brainwashed by a right-wing religious upbringing or something, but really, the slightest bit of research into the matter would correct their view, so anyone who holds it is really choosing to hold on to it in spite of all evidence to the contrary

[delta_mai]

I don't know that it is wilful ignorance, you know. Some people just find it hard to understand. When we're brought up in a culture so obsessed with gender binary and heteronormativism, and if we're taught that's the ONLY WAY, it's really hard to believe otherwise. It's basically re-learning something. And some people have a problem with that. I don't understand these people, and I think it's pretty obvious bisexuality exists, but there you are

[dance_the_dance]

Saying "it doesn't exist" when "it" is something fictional or probably fictional, is obviously okay. Saying "it doesn't exist" when "it" obviously exists, is ignorance, not an opinion. And saying "it doesn't exist" when "it" is someone's identity that obviously exists is saying "you don't exist, you don't count, you're lying or you're confused", and is both ignorant and assholish.

[delta_mai]

Well, technically it's an opinion based in ignorance. Anything you think is an opinion! And yeah, it's TOTALLY STUPID and hurtful, but we shouldn't immediately attack these people and accuse them of things they might not be advocating. Let's show them how to act!!!

[dance_the_dance]

I don't know if "water doesn't exist" or "the moon doesn't exist" would be an opinion or just ignorance tbh. ;]

I'm definitely against attacking anyone for any reason of course, ITA with you here! :)

BTW (as I read the other comments) - using the word "phobia" to actually mean "hate" is wrong for so many reasons. I like the term "heterosexism" much better than "homophobia".

[delta_mai]

Everything is opinion. Everything that you believe and think is true is an opinion. But that's me waxing philosophical, and I've already written entire essays on this subject and have no desire to do so again! But it doesn't matter! That's just my opinion! LOL And I do understand it's also ignorance in this case cos DUH OF COURSE WE EXIST ;P

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!!!!!! No-one seems to understand this! I think it's awful to assume that all hatred for LGBTQA is routed in fear! Anyway, thanks :D

[findmeneverland]

Yeah but when the original person is actively saying "hate on it" -- not just that they don't get it, which I understand....

I just hate being told that I should be hated on for who I am. It's so fucked up and it makes me cry every time i think about it. I don't think you can justify spreading hate.

I don't know, I'm in a really bad place right now.

[delta_mai]

well like I said I'm not really commenting on the original post cos I haven't read it!

And no, you shouldn't like being told that! That's horrible! But I'm just saying that in some cases IT'S NOT ALWAYS HATE!!!!!! Thinking something doesn't exist does not mean you hate it.

Argh, I thought you of all people would understand. You know, cos you normally understand everything I say. This is so interesting though. It seems neither side of this divide want to tolerate the other!!

Wow, okay. I was not expecting this from you.

[masu_trout]

I gotta say, D-M, I really, really disagree with you on this one. You're taking a definition of biphobia that is totally incorrect- saying that biphobia is only people who fear or hate bisexuals- and basing your argument on that. Biphobia is treating somebody as lesser because of their orientation. It can be motivated by indifference or ignorance just as easily as any other emotion. (To use an example from a topic I think we both care about, I seriously doubt men who write sexualized, unrealistic portrayals of women in books or movies or comics are doing it because they hate or fear women. They're doing it because that's what they find easy or attractive, and they honestly don't comprehend or don't care that there are real people out there who are angered by that. Would you seriously tell me that makes exploitative treatment of women in fiction any less problematic

[delta_mai]

Oh no, you've misunderstood me! Ok, first of all, the meaning of bi/homophobia IS fear based. That's why it has the word "phobia" in it. There is the popular interpretation of the word, but I just understand it in its purest form. But my entire argument isn't based on that - I'm just saying that we shouldn't get angry at people who don't think bisexuality exists, as it's their opinion

[masu_trout]

I understand some of your points, but overall I think

For one, I think you're taking the word "phobe" to literally. Despite the latin root it contains, it encompasses the full range of sexuality-based discrimination bisexual people face-- words don't always break down perfectly into the pieces they come from. Normally I wouldn't recommend Wikipedia, but this is pretty spot on- note especially that denialism is the first example they list of biphobic behaviors. I get where you're coming from, but I can't agree that this doesn't count as biphobia

[delta_mai]

Sorry, that's what the word means. There is a popular interpretaion of the term homophobia but I don't see it as correct. dance_the_dance basically summed up why I think this: "I actually see a lot of posts about how "homophobia" doesn't really make sense as a word. It's also unfair to people with actual phobias (illnesses that the people cannot control and that don't harm other people) when you compare their phobias to hate and discrimination that isn't caused by an illness and can be controlled