Tolerance is a two way street.

[delta_mai]

So this is a Tumblr cross post.  The original post was in response to reactions to someone talking about how bisexuality doesn't exist.  It soon escalated into accusations (maybe unfounded, maybe not) of biphobia and hatred.  This is my reply.

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Thinking something does not exist does NOT equal hate or biphobia. I am a great advocate for people

Comments

Wow, okay. I was not expecting this from you.

[masu_trout]

I gotta say, D-M, I really, really disagree with you on this one. You're taking a definition of biphobia that is totally incorrect- saying that biphobia is only people who fear or hate bisexuals- and basing your argument on that. Biphobia is treating somebody as lesser because of their orientation. It can be motivated by indifference or ignorance just as easily as any other emotion. (To use an example from a topic I think we both care about, I seriously doubt men who write sexualized, unrealistic portrayals of women in books or movies or comics are doing it because they hate or fear women. They're doing it because that's what they find easy or attractive, and they honestly don't comprehend or don't care that there are real people out there who are angered by that. Would you seriously tell me that makes exploitative treatment of women in fiction any less problematic?)

Here's the thing: when somebody says they don't believe bisexual people exist, it's not the same thing as saying they don't think unicorns exist. When a person says bisexual people don't exist, there's an implication to that- an implication that bisexual people are deluded and that straight people know your own sexuality better than you do. That's harmful. It actively contributes to an environment where bisexual people are led to believe their feelings aren't valid, an environment that leads young LGBT+ teens to believe they should just stay in the closet. That's basically textbook ~phobia right there.

(And btw, your friend's parents are biphobic. That doesn't mean they aren't good people-- my own parents have a lot of subtle homophobia and sexism and racism, but I still think they're great and love them more than anything. But having an issue with two girls dating that you wouldn't have with a girl and a boy dating is a subtle form of homophobia.)

There's a lot more I want to say about this (namely the tone argument bit and the "tolerate the intolerant bit,") but I'm getting frustrated and this is getting long so I'll just close this off by saying that I'm pretty disappointed, because normally I totally agree with you and love your opinions, so this was kind of just a big smack to the face. :(

[delta_mai]

Oh no, you've misunderstood me! Ok, first of all, the meaning of bi/homophobia IS fear based. That's why it has the word "phobia" in it. There is the popular interpretation of the word, but I just understand it in its purest form. But my entire argument isn't based on that - I'm just saying that we shouldn't get angry at people who don't think bisexuality exists, as it's their opinion.

Plus I'm not saying it's any less problematic this way. It's just as, if not MORE problematic, because if they don't think this because of fear, then they think this because of ignorance or intolerance.

Also, the term in your example about men and women is misogyny. This doesn't have the term "phobia" in it, and translates as hatred of women. Or you might have meant sexism. Either way, totally different concept.

Oh, please don't think I'm naive! Honestly, I know it's hurtful. Just because it personally doesn't hurt me, at the moment anyway, it's not like I don't realise how horrible this assumption can be. I get that. But it's not textbook phobia. Textbook phobia is fear, not intolerance or behaviour or culture.

I'm being really pedantic here, I know, but it's only so you don't misunderstand me! I don't want anyone to think I'm condoning this opinion, saying it's not hurtful, or anything. I thought I made that clear :S

You're probably right about my friend's mum - her belief might be routed in fear of the unknown or fear of bisexuality. But I'm just saying it might be possible that isn't the cause of her prejudice and incorrect opinion.

I'm sorry I offended you with this post! I honestly didn't mean the things you thought I did. Basically, it's a post saying that this is a horrible thing in society, yes, but we should take the moral high ground, and not attack or assume bad things about these people. It's really a behave towards others how you want them to behave to you sort of thing.

[masu_trout]

I understand some of your points, but overall I think

For one, I think you're taking the word "phobe" to literally. Despite the latin root it contains, it encompasses the full range of sexuality-based discrimination bisexual people face-- words don't always break down perfectly into the pieces they come from. Normally I wouldn't recommend Wikipedia, but this is pretty spot on- note especially that denialism is the first example they list of biphobic behaviors. I get where you're coming from, but I can't agree that this doesn't count as biphobia.

Also, we kind of have the moral high ground by default-- straight people don't have to worry about not being represented in media, having laws passed to restrict their rights because of their orientation, or being physically attacked and brutalized for their orientation, and no amount of angry Tumblr posts will take that privilege away. I can understand wanting to keep things polite, but people are people and people get mad and I think it would be much fairer to target the initial attackers than those who respond angrily. (ER, I have to ask- were there any RL threats involved in the Tumblr post? Because that's waaaaay crossing the line, but if that upset you should've ranted about that instead of how being homophobic isn't any worse than being angry about homophobia.)

You've got the best of intentions, I can tell, but I really think you're looking at this wrong. (But thank you for the apology. I do appreciate it. :))

[delta_mai]

Sorry, that's what the word means. There is a popular interpretaion of the term homophobia but I don't see it as correct. dance_the_dance basically summed up why I think this: "I actually see a lot of posts about how "homophobia" doesn't really make sense as a word. It's also unfair to people with actual phobias (illnesses that the people cannot control and that don't harm other people) when you compare their phobias to hate and discrimination that isn't caused by an illness and can be controlled."

Just so you know :)

Btw also the original post about bisexuality not existing was by a gay person. So... I'm not talking about moral high ground vs straight people.

And unfortunately, I think you're looking at it wrong. :( It's sad we can't agree. I think we probably have very similar opinions, it's just that's got lost in the limited communication we have here, along with misunderstandings. If you want you can read my replies to other comments, because I explained most of the views you're taking issue with further. It's just I'm in a lot of pain right now and cba to write it all out again!

[masu_trout]

I still disagree, but if you'd prefer it I'm okay with ending this here. :) I doubt we'll cover any new ground at this point anyway. Hope you feel better soon!