I am thinking that gremlins have taken over writing the show. LOL. Part of me also thinks that Dean and Sam have switched bodies or are possessed. Just so much weirdness going on and I can't keep up.
I understand that the writers are taking Sam and Dean down a new path and are stripping away what matters most in order to rebuild it (I hope), but the way in which they're doing it is so extreme that I feel like it threatens what the show has been built on for 5 seasons. And for that reason, SPN doesn't really feel like SPN even though the characters are walking and talking on the screen, and, yeah, it does make them feel unfamiliar!
I like your gremlin theory. Fuzzy fur balls turned crazy destructors after midnight might explain a lot. ;) Shall the SPN headquarters be drenched with water soon. Teehee.
Hm, I am not quite as aggrevated as you are, I guess mostly because I felt that throughout the episode it was clear how much Dean needs his Sam, how much he wants him back and how everything got instantly better the moment he thought he does have him back. So, I felt that the brotherly love was still there and will be recovered as soon as Sam is his old self
( ... )
Basically, I agree with everything you said here. I think there is some level of I'm-not-going-to-kill-you-in-your-sleep in Dean putting the knife away and there is some level of I-can't-deal-with-you(us)-right-now in that beating which is probably why it was so all over the top.
And, boy, do we need some Sam PoVness. Desperately. It cannot have been easy to have spent all this time not feeling stuff and not even caring enough to call for help until his very life was threatened, it cannot have been comfortable knowing you're a better hunter now that you feel less human or something, and do we know this? No, and we should because Sam is just as important as Dean in the narrative. And also, Dean needs to own up to his own crap as well, as you point out, and he's not really going to until Sam is made more sympathetic, prompting some insight from Dean.
Yeah, I can rationalise Dean beating Sam, even if I didn't like that scene very much.
Yes, Sam PoV is in order, urgently. I mean, he seemed genuine in his last plea to Dean, he knows something is wrong and he knows he needs help, but I am not sure that he really feels it. He knows it intellectually, but not emotionally. That's also why he always insists that he is fine when Dean asks him how he feels. But it is important that we as the audience understand how exactly Sam is affected by having no emotions. He obiously knows exactly how he is supposed to respond to certain emotional situations and he knows how to mimic that response, but without the emotions that are the motivation for that response in the first place, it's just empty acting. And I would really like to know how Sam copes with that. /sigh
Sorry for taking so long to reply. I'm glad you're able to see more of the brotherly relationship in these episodes than me. I do agree, once the real Sam returns, Sam and Dean's relationship will be on the mend. I really look forward to that happening, and all I can say is that I hope the payoff will do all this waiting and fan angst service.
I think that shows that he believes Sam on some levelYes, true, Dean didn't want to kill Sam anymore, but just use him as his personal punching bag, which I can only surmise is supposed to be proof of his brotherly love and the depth of his compassion. *snort* Sorry for the sarcasm, it's not directed at you or your comment, that kind of violence is one of my triggers. But, seriously, I think Dean was taking a wait and see approach (wait to see what this version of Sam would do next ... more admissions?) and then didn't know what to do with all his pent-up emotion. Sadly, it's canon fact that Dean hits the things he loves the most (the Impala and Sam) when he's scared (and angry) and
( ... )
I was all for this episode until Dean's Epic Manpain started to sneak in and take over.
Seriously. The whole "Your relationship is RUINING YOUR LIFE" with the "You're my favorite, srsly" and then Dean getting to punch the crap out of Sam seemed like nothing but lipservice to the more vocal and crazy part of fandom, instead of a decent enough narrative.
I miss when it felt like this show had two equal leads. Ye gods but this Dean-centrism is no fun at all.
I miss when it felt like this show had two equal leads. Ye gods but this Dean-centrism is no fun at all.
*chants SamPOVepisodeSamPOVepisode*
I don't know if you remember me blabbing years ago about how Sam was tied to the plot in the early seasons and Dean wasn't so Show had to pay special attention to him in order to make sense of why he was there, but I feel like I should write a twin meta called "Sam Winchester, Man of Mysterious Mystery and Off-Screen Action: Why Being the Plot Tiger Sucks". XD Dude, crack!meta is the only way to deal with such injustice. ;)
Ahh man. I'd be all for it but truthfully I kind of think Sam needs to be the Plot Tiger. Unfortunately, thanks to Dean being a very reactive character (and avoidance one as well) instead of a proactive one (and his ties as the "human" side of the human/supernatural coin), Dean being the Plot Tiger mainly means Dean being angsty and helpless as he's circled by superatural beings wanting to use his body.
I have given up hope for Sam POV eps, even though supposedly there is one coming down the pipe. But I believe it will be Sam POV the same way I Know What You Did was... which mainly translates out to Sam's POV being the subplot while the boys investigate the Real Plot and the existence of another character / object is justifid.
Blaah! I want to like Show again! I want to crack up and enjoy the camp and brotherly bonding and write meta about The Point. I am so going to watch Utena tomorrow and write long diatribes about the various colors of pink in it.
Well, someone has to be the Plot Tiger and why not Sam (again)? -_- But seriously, where S5 left off, it makes sense that this season would have to deal *somehow* with the aftermath of jumping into the cage (plot). It's just that Sam is once again being manipulated (at least in terms of the general circumstance), which seems like a huge letdown considering how he was supposed to be redeemed by his own choices/sacrifice in "SS". Talk about two steps back. I see the attraction in the symmetry of making it be Sam that pulls Dean back into the hunt, but there are ways to have woven Dean into the mytharc (plot) rather than making him largely reactive to ... everyone, which I think makes him seem even more rage-y and like an emotional ping pong ball.
I want to like Show again! I want to crack up and enjoy the camp and brotherly bonding and write meta about The Point.
I hear you. Show is so much more fun with squee. I'd much rather write happy, excited meta about anything Show
( ... )
Personally I don't think the punchfest at the end was payback for Sam letting Dean get turned. I think it was just Dean letting out his pent up frustration and rage.
It both amuses and disgusts me that some fans are saying Sam deserved it, because no, he didn't. Two wrongs don't make a right. What are they teaching kids in school these days? Not the Golden Rule, evidently. :P
( ... )
Personally I don't think the punchfest at the end was payback for Sam letting Dean get turned. I think it was just Dean letting out his pent up frustration and rage.
Probably all of the above and then some. Dean's knee-jerk reaction is to represses everything. And unless there's someone there to needle him about it whom Dean trusts *coughSamcough* and feels safe with, he'll just keep burying it all (with alcohol). Of course, that stuff can't stay inert and demobilized forever, it festers and ferments and then starts to seep out in other ways until it explodes (which I think is what we saw in this episode). see Dean's relationship with Lisa similar to what I'd imagine a war veteran's relationship with their spouse may be: wanting to be close and supportive but unless that person was there experiencing the dregs of war, it's hard to understand exactly what they're going through and hard for them to articulate the feelings/thoughts because there really aren't accurate words for such extreme, unimaginable experiences.
I hope they don't wait until the last show of the season/series to put Sam back together.
Looking at the fact we're 1/3 through the season now and we're still learning the very basics about this season's mytharc (and still don't fully know Sam's motivations), SPN is crawling along at a snail's pace. I'd like to see Sam reunited with his soul sooner than later, but I'm not so sure it'll happen unless the plot pace begins to dramatically pick up from here on out. I'm beginning to suspect the season's end might be Sam getting his soul back and, if there's another season, the cliffhanger would have to do with "at what cost" and "in what mental condition is Sam now in"?
I'm not sure what Dean has to own up to though.
I don't think I implied that he has to own up to anything. In fact, I think he has every right to be frustrated and angry, but I don't think that gives him the right to abuse anyone, Sam included.
I don't think we should go crazy over why Dean went to see Lisa when he was a vamp.It's not really the details here
( ... )
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I like your gremlin theory. Fuzzy fur balls turned crazy destructors after midnight might explain a lot. ;) Shall the SPN headquarters be drenched with water soon. Teehee.
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And, boy, do we need some Sam PoVness. Desperately. It cannot have been easy to have spent all this time not feeling stuff and not even caring enough to call for help until his very life was threatened, it cannot have been comfortable knowing you're a better hunter now that you feel less human or something, and do we know this? No, and we should because Sam is just as important as Dean in the narrative. And also, Dean needs to own up to his own crap as well, as you point out, and he's not really going to until Sam is made more sympathetic, prompting some insight from Dean.
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Yes, Sam PoV is in order, urgently. I mean, he seemed genuine in his last plea to Dean, he knows something is wrong and he knows he needs help, but I am not sure that he really feels it. He knows it intellectually, but not emotionally. That's also why he always insists that he is fine when Dean asks him how he feels. But it is important that we as the audience understand how exactly Sam is affected by having no emotions. He obiously knows exactly how he is supposed to respond to certain emotional situations and he knows how to mimic that response, but without the emotions that are the motivation for that response in the first place, it's just empty acting. And I would really like to know how Sam copes with that. /sigh
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I think that shows that he believes Sam on some levelYes, true, Dean didn't want to kill Sam anymore, but just use him as his personal punching bag, which I can only surmise is supposed to be proof of his brotherly love and the depth of his compassion. *snort* Sorry for the sarcasm, it's not directed at you or your comment, that kind of violence is one of my triggers. But, seriously, I think Dean was taking a wait and see approach (wait to see what this version of Sam would do next ... more admissions?) and then didn't know what to do with all his pent-up emotion. Sadly, it's canon fact that Dean hits the things he loves the most (the Impala and Sam) when he's scared (and angry) and ( ... )
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Seriously. The whole "Your relationship is RUINING YOUR LIFE" with the "You're my favorite, srsly" and then Dean getting to punch the crap out of Sam seemed like nothing but lipservice to the more vocal and crazy part of fandom, instead of a decent enough narrative.
I miss when it felt like this show had two equal leads. Ye gods but this Dean-centrism is no fun at all.
Reply
*chants SamPOVepisodeSamPOVepisode*
I don't know if you remember me blabbing years ago about how Sam was tied to the plot in the early seasons and Dean wasn't so Show had to pay special attention to him in order to make sense of why he was there, but I feel like I should write a twin meta called "Sam Winchester, Man of Mysterious Mystery and Off-Screen Action: Why Being the Plot Tiger Sucks". XD Dude, crack!meta is the only way to deal with such injustice. ;)
Reply
I have given up hope for Sam POV eps, even though supposedly there is one coming down the pipe. But I believe it will be Sam POV the same way I Know What You Did was... which mainly translates out to Sam's POV being the subplot while the boys investigate the Real Plot and the existence of another character / object is justifid.
Blaah! I want to like Show again! I want to crack up and enjoy the camp and brotherly bonding and write meta about The Point. I am so going to watch Utena tomorrow and write long diatribes about the various colors of pink in it.
Reply
Well, someone has to be the Plot Tiger and why not Sam (again)? -_- But seriously, where S5 left off, it makes sense that this season would have to deal *somehow* with the aftermath of jumping into the cage (plot). It's just that Sam is once again being manipulated (at least in terms of the general circumstance), which seems like a huge letdown considering how he was supposed to be redeemed by his own choices/sacrifice in "SS". Talk about two steps back. I see the attraction in the symmetry of making it be Sam that pulls Dean back into the hunt, but there are ways to have woven Dean into the mytharc (plot) rather than making him largely reactive to ... everyone, which I think makes him seem even more rage-y and like an emotional ping pong ball.
I want to like Show again! I want to crack up and enjoy the camp and brotherly bonding and write meta about The Point.
I hear you. Show is so much more fun with squee. I'd much rather write happy, excited meta about anything Show ( ... )
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It both amuses and disgusts me that some fans are saying Sam deserved it, because no, he didn't. Two wrongs don't make a right. What are they teaching kids in school these days? Not the Golden Rule, evidently. :P ( ... )
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Probably all of the above and then some. Dean's knee-jerk reaction is to represses everything. And unless there's someone there to needle him about it whom Dean trusts *coughSamcough* and feels safe with, he'll just keep burying it all (with alcohol). Of course, that stuff can't stay inert and demobilized forever, it festers and ferments and then starts to seep out in other ways until it explodes (which I think is what we saw in this episode). see Dean's relationship with Lisa similar to what I'd imagine a war veteran's relationship with their spouse may be: wanting to be close and supportive but unless that person was there experiencing the dregs of war, it's hard to understand exactly what they're going through and hard for them to articulate the feelings/thoughts because there really aren't accurate words for such extreme, unimaginable experiences.
It both ( ... )
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Looking at the fact we're 1/3 through the season now and we're still learning the very basics about this season's mytharc (and still don't fully know Sam's motivations), SPN is crawling along at a snail's pace. I'd like to see Sam reunited with his soul sooner than later, but I'm not so sure it'll happen unless the plot pace begins to dramatically pick up from here on out. I'm beginning to suspect the season's end might be Sam getting his soul back and, if there's another season, the cliffhanger would have to do with "at what cost" and "in what mental condition is Sam now in"?
I'm not sure what Dean has to own up to though.
I don't think I implied that he has to own up to anything. In fact, I think he has every right to be frustrated and angry, but I don't think that gives him the right to abuse anyone, Sam included.
I don't think we should go crazy over why Dean went to see Lisa when he was a vamp.It's not really the details here ( ... )
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