Flappy Gum Syndrome and Diarrhea of the Fingers

[bowtrunckle]

A meta by karenmiller got me thinking about Dean and Sam and the overturning of their belief systems since S2 ("HotH") and how that would affect their actions at the end of S4.  I started typing my response only to find I wrote way too much to politely post as a comment (oops), so I'm posting my thoughts here because nobody cares if I pollute my own journal

Comments

[galathea_snb]

God is no longer this benevolent force, granting the prayers and rewarding those that believe because, in Sam's mind, how could God do those things if He/She/It/Whatever let Dean, a good person who saves lives and who sacrificed himself, go to Hell?

Which is pretty much the same argumentat why Dean lost his own faith when he was 4 years old. He couldn't reconciliate the fact that God allowed random evil to kill Mary, who was a believer, with the thought of a benevolent power and hence abandoned God alltogether.

His Faith has been replaced with a last ditch desperate grab for something good to come out of "his curse" because I think he believes that he might be able to save himself if his actions save lives.I do believe this as well. It harks back to Playthings where Sam thought that if he only saved enough lives, he could change his own destiny. Back then I think he still thought of God as the saving grace, who would protect him if he only proved to be good enough. Nowadays, I think he feels forsaken by God, his brother and the

[bowtrunckle]

Which is pretty much the same argumentat why Dean lost his own faith when he was 4

Good point! And to add to that, I bet John's belief system also overhauled as a result of those events. Seems like Sam is just following in the footsteps of those that have come before him.

[Sam] feels forsaken by God, his brother and the world and he needs to prove them all wrong, even if it kills him in the process.I think you've hit the nail on the head. Even though I don't think Sam is overtly suicidal, I don't doubt that thought has never crossed his mind, esp. with recent turn of events. Sam's always prided himself on his independence, and I bet he's the last one who ever thought he's be dependent on an addictive substance or even dependent on Ruby, a DEMON, for his fix. If he can't even clean himself from "his curse" I think he probably wants to die, esp. if that means other people will live. Because Sam is afraid of himself and what he's becoming as much (if not more) than anyone else. Recall his words in S2 about him telling Dean if

[yourlibrarian]

elevating John and Mary to near saint status. But over the course of 2 seasons the reality of who John was (human)...has slowly stripped Dean of his own brand of faith.

I imagine he lost some in his memory of Mary, too. He thought she was great, but the last image we know he had of her, was her making a deal with a demon. He discovered what Sam had known for more than a year, that Mary knew the YED, and hid the truth from them.

And yeah, it's a good point about how both have been losing their faith this season, including in one another.

[bowtrunckle]

Very true. I imagine that was an eye opener to say the least. Talk about keeping secrets; it seems like we know who Sam got is tight lip from. ;)

Have you had time to watch the "ItB" commentary with Kripke and Carver yet? Apparently, one of the many reasons why they couldn't have Azazel be too specific about his side of the the deal with Mary was because they didn't want to vilify her by having her sacrifice one of her unborn children for John. So they opted with a vague notion that Azazel just needed permission to enter her house and that if he was interrupted nobody would get hurt. So it's good to know that the writers are trying to preserve the memory of Mary somewhat.

[yourlibrarian]

They did a commentary for the episode? Where is it available? (Is this one that will be on the DVD?)

Yeah, I suspected they had done that at the time. Of course, we, the viewers already knew what he was up to. I think Mary might still have made the deal, but I don't think she would have been so unprepared for his arrival.

In fact, that would be a really interesting AU story -- of Mary turning into Sam as she knows all along a day is approaching but tries to keep it from John, while still hunting down the YED>

[bowtrunckle]

Where is it available?

They're on YouTube! Growyourwings posted all the embeds at her journal here:

http://growyourwings.livejournal.com/286081.html

I'm not certain, but my guess is that it'll be included as one of the DVD extras. I hope so at least.

that would be a really interesting AU story...

It would be (plus, I sort of miss Azazel). I have a fondness for well-written AU fic, esp. ones that take canon facts and reinvent stories around them that change the perspective of events/characters without contradicting canon facts/events/characterization. Not an easy task, but very cool when it happens. The summer hiatus is a good time for me to read fic, something I don't do much of otherwise.

[dianne_37]

I agree, I think it's still about saving people and I think Sam hopes he can be saved too. I really hope it remains that way because it's what I hope for out of the story since finding out that Sam had demon blood. If the writers strayed totally from the basic plot they've been establishing since day one where Sam was thrust into Dean's arms I think it would be a disservice to those that watch the show. I think, like you said here, that the reasoning behind what they do might be different now since they found out more about the forces of good and evil and where they are placed in their lives. I'll never forget Sam's eager eyes and the way his hand shot out to shake Castiel's hand when he found out there were really angels and the way Castiel almost withdrew his hand like Sam was a leper or something dirty. That was so sad, since Sam told Dean he prayed daily and it was Dean who the angels were interested in. A total shock had to have hit both of them and thus, beliefs changed and motives changed, but not the extent where they were

[bowtrunckle]

I hope the heart of the story, Sam and Dean trying to save each other (even if it gets a little warped and their actions are at odds), carries through until the series finale. If that somehow gets lost in the process and never comes full circle, then it would be terribly unsatisfying for all the viewers who enjoy the brother relationship aspect of the show

[hearseeno]

Both have exhausted all other means, both are desperate, both just want to save each other. And we all know what happens when that Winchester self-sacrificing gene comes into play... O.O

*snork* Yep.

I'd "tabbed" your post and now I'm going back and play catch-up, so you're making me all anxious to see where Season 5 is going to take the Boys on their quest to save each other. What's exciting about this point, for me, is that, unhindered by the past now that their idols have fallen, they are now free to choose.

[bowtrunckle]

I'd "tabbed" your post and now I'm going back and play catch-up

Glad you decided to take a peek after the fact.

anxious to see where Season 5 is going to take the Boys on their quest to save each other

So many possibilities! I can't wait to see what transpires in 5x01 ... I think after that we'll get a real sense of where S5 is headed. In fact, I have a feeling that it'll be similar to the bridge between 1x22 and 2x01 whereby we'll be seeing the end arc of S4 and the big fat seeds to S5 in the same episode (5x01), which will technically/storywise is part of the previous season.

unhindered by the past now that their idols have fallen, they are now free to choose.Yes! \o/ I think, too, that not only are they started to see the ugly reality of the ones they elevated once upon a time, they've also seen each others'. Learning to accept each other warts and all is what I think the Big Outcome will be from S4. And even though they'll still subscribe to the big brother and little brother roles (as it's practically impulse by now